Justice Juice Mafia Thread I (NIGHT 3)

[Cheez8]

There are totally other viable wagons but I'm not really that concerned about voting for yours.

Guys! I finally found where Validon got this quote from! It's a miracle.

Apparently I was talking about Serela's wagon and used "concerned about" to mean "bothered by", and not "invested in" like I originally thought. It was about when it occurred to me that with Polaris believing so firmly that Serela was scum there'd be almost no way we could get both of them voting for the same person even if they both were town. If Serela and Polaris were both in the game today, and we had the same amount of townies and mafia remaining as we do now, two missing votes would be a really big deal. The town wouldn't even be able to form a majority without the help of either the Serela+Polaris team or a mafia vote. That's why I wasn't too concerned about voting Serela in light of Polly's total distrust.

I'm not sure why this is sufficient grounds for "still urgh" though. Or something more important, like, you know... a vote.

Sheesh, so many suspicious townies this game. I'm aware I'm not helping matters too, but man...

[Kilgamayan]

Oh hey look I'm finally getting around to this. Going to bed once it's posted, though.

NK spec

Can't really address this much since it's NK spec, though I will say that I personally believe scum will roleblock a known problematic power role instead of roleblock-guessing at who might be a more problematic power role.

(one of the many posts encouraging Serela to play when he was getting lynched) and

Why would Kilga try to encourage his suspects to play if he was town and really thought they are scummy? I just get the feeling that he's frustrated scum because of everything being too easy to him when he actually wants to put effort and earn his victory.

And anyways, if he really wanted to see more content from them he'd be doing an entirely different thing, like asking them questions about their thoughts. There's also the fact that if he felt he hadn't seen enough from them he wouldn't be voting them with the reasons he's given. (o_o)

If I have a scumread on a townie, I want them to prove me wrong. This seems really, really obvious. Why would you NOT want your scumreads to show you that they're actually town if they're town? This is particularly true of D1 when I'm never really sure of anything.

And this is Kilga basically coaching his suspect yet again, but the part about the ?townie hand? is so fake that it made me stare at the screen in wonder.
Basic Psychology lessons, part 1: When people praise themselves just like that and out of context when there was no need to do so and it doesn't seem coherent with their personality, DOUBT THEM. It's obvious they want to reinforce a certain impression of themselves with that, and that's probably because they're lying or going to lie at some point.

I think this is an ESL issue. "Holding a townie hand through this process" isn't a reference to me, it's a reference to Serela. If he was town, I wanted him to show me (and everyone else) that the wagon on him was incorrect instead of giving up, but he wasn't giving me much reason to change my mind (see here for another example of this). Basically, the implication is that since I had to grab Serela's hand and drag him through the case-making process, he wasn't likely to be town, because if he was town I wouldn't need to take his (townie) hand a drag him through the case-making process.

Another thing I don't like is how he postpones voting Validon both D1 and D2 while still saying he's scummy. After dropping him he doesn't update his case on him either.I'd expect town to still elaborate on their other main suspect, or at least comment on something.
He actually just mentions Validon in one post after the D2 voteswitch:

Which basically just states that he keeps suspecting Validon.

Validon never gave me good reason to stop suspecting him. I tried to keep the case updated at least until the middle of Day 2 came, when my Shadowy tunnel coincided with the extra-busy portion of my week. I do not like that I haven't gone over Validon in-depth recently and know I need to find the time to do so.

Here he's not happy with Cheez voting Validon, but Cheez updated his reasoning on Dormio and thought Validon was scummier anyways, so I don't understant such a reaction.

I like original cases more than parrot cases, simple as that. :V Even when it's my case that's getting parroted, I want to see as much original effort as possible, otherwise I have to question your true scumhunting motivation. Cheez's Dormio's suspicion was an original idea while the Validon vote was a copy of what other players had put out.

Here he's defending Validon.

Untrue: I was attacking SB's reasoning for his Validon vote. See what I said some time ago about being right for shit reasons.

But that's not the only time he's discouraged votes on Validon:

This could be just a question, but it could still discourage a vote on Kilga's supposed second main suspect at that moment.

How was that question discouraging Validon votes? If anything it was encouraging a Validon vote, because I was calling Polaris's attention back to Validon after he had apparently forgotten about him, particular since Polaris said "I would like to see more posts with cases that are a bit stronger". If I had wanted to damage the propects of Validon votes I would have simply not reminded Polaris that Validon existed.

---

Unrelated to the above: I want everyone that hasn't already to weigh in on the votecount thing I discussed. The tl;dr version is that, if one accepts NNR's statement about Mitsuki and myself as true, then Cheez has to be scum by the way the End of Day 2 wagons shook down.

[Cheez8]

Oy.

Kilga, you've been barking up the wrong trees this entire game. The more I think about it, the more likely I find it that you're part of the scum team. Since you're apparently such a good player, as however many people seem to like to mention, I'd have thought you'd be on the right track at least once before Day 4 rolls around, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

To everybody who feels like reasoning: Assume, if you will, that I'm a townie. Not as in "don't lynch me", but simply for the sake of reasoning, assume I'm a townie, and progress from there. What changes about the votes' meaning? Am I still the only suspicious person who jumps on Kilga at the end of Day 2? Would the mafia really have a reason to want Kilga dead? I want you all to think these things through under the assumption that I'm a townie. You're going to have to sooner or later, so it might as well be sooner that you discover that Kilga's scenario isn't the only one to consider.

Anyway, I'll see you all in the morning.

[Sky_Paladin]

Basically I have no idea and no opportunity to do any kind of read or analysis because the whole time I am here my wife is here so I can't spend more than five minutes in front of the computer. 

I voted Polaris because I agree with Mitsuki's overall feeling.  It doesn't sound like she is making shit up.  Therefore I trust her.  In the absence of having my own good plans, that's why I'm going with her vote. 

I am suspicious of Kilga, and by implication, NNR's statement that Kilga and Mitsuki are the same team.  Kilga has said a lot of the time how they are such a great player but that doesn't mean a whole lot.  It's more interesting when other people say that you are a great player.  Something doesn't feel right but I don't have any time. 

I won't really get enough time to do any kind of analysis until much later this evening or tomorrow.  So far my net effort is to get Shadoweh lynched though so I'm not feeling too special. 

[BT]

Votecount unchanged. 5 to lynch, 44 hours remaining.

Darkninjaabc - 632
Everyone else - 400

[DNAbc]

For your record. I have been off to some competition where you debate.


I read through all of this briefly and skimmed walls. I feel that its going to help more to check stances and how they contradict eachother.

This is the second time mafia for me but this really is bull. I have yet to score anything with a supposely super helpful ability. We can at least confirm someones alignment already. I am kind of pissed off at scum. And shadowy must die.

I am trying to read the entire thread again since now we actually has a significant enough chunk of super trustworthy info.

Dormio is too neutral and is scum. Maintaining null till d3 has to be deliberate.
Cheez8 is scum. I had my hunches because he said he was new and such. Its not like i dont have my doubts now but i wont sheep for him if nothing more convicting is brought up
Validon is pressed as scum but i dont agree since i basically have to go absent due to irl.
This also explains why i think  mistsupx is town slot.
Nnr is scum. Gutread more than anything really. Hes looking null through friggin d3. Usual scum trick.
The hardest thing to do is to townread kilga. I assumed with how quickly and decisively he cyvled through stances with a huge amount of dedication that it looks scunplay. I see his arguments as merely filling in the holes when he already had the conclusion. What i will say after looking at his effort that hes town pr. He basically engaged in reverse psychology with scum n2 and dared them to shoot him. As with what scum did with sb. Its obvious  scum likr killing towns to make associative scumreads. Kilga docced himself. Hence explain why i failed my na.
Yes i am deciding to trust kilga for the time being.
And i will download every fucking th game if you turn out to be scum

[Mitsuki]

Do I really have to stand people saying that my cases are terrible without actually pointing out why? Sigh.
At least Kilga answered. Thank you.

Can't really address this much since it's NK spec, though I will say that I personally believe scum will roleblock a known problematic power role instead of roleblock-guessing at who might be a more problematic power role.

... what I meant was not just that, I said that scum would try to kill either you or Dark.

If I have a scumread on a townie, I want them to prove me wrong. This seems really, really obvious. Why would you NOT want your scumreads to show you that they're actually town if they're town? This is particularly true of D1 when I'm never really sure of anything.

I want my scumreads to answer to me properly and such, but encouraging them to form another wagon is something that I wouldn't even think of telling them to do. What's the point, anyways? It's not like a player trying to form another wagon on request is going to prove if they're town or not. And then you discouraged Serela's opinion on Polaris being scum because he wasn't getting lynched. I remember, and that's one of the actual parts of my cases I never got into.
All of that and the overall tone made me think what I thought.

Validon never gave me good reason to stop suspecting him. I tried to keep the case updated at least until the middle of Day 2 came, when my Shadowy tunnel coincided with the extra-busy portion of my week. I do not like that I haven't gone over Validon in-depth recently and know I need to find the time to do so.

Ok, but Validon is probably the only lynch we're both supporting so it's extra important to update your case on him.
Although I should reconsider him myself (>_<)



Dark, docs can't usually target themselves. I think you were just roleblocked again.

[Mitsuki]

Openly saying that cases are bad without giving any actual reason is scummy, by the way.

[Mitsuki]

Could you at least properly reply to them? (=_=;

[Mitsuki]

Note that, for one, Sky Paladin isn't colored green on some whim. Why was Paladin even green in the first place?

I coloured him green because I'm almost sure abou him being town. I said why on my posts.
I had a question for you I'd like you to answer: why do you think Polaris is town?

[Mitsuki]

By the way, it seems a lot of people think that I stop considering other players just because of my scumreads, and it's not like that. I still think about them, but there's nothing that makes me want to go and vote them, like what happened with Shadoweh.
If I directly stopped considering them I'd be townreading them. But notice that I'm just doing that with Paladin (I'm still considering NNR and Kilga being scumbuddies somehow, so I'm not stopping considering NNR after all).

If someone wants me to ISO someone else, tell me and I'll do it. If you want me to give an opinion about a certain thing, tell me and I'll do it. Even if you tell me to ISO a townread, I'll do it and give you my opinion.

[Sky_Paladin]

OK, I've got a small window! 

I want to talk about NNR/Mitsuki/Kilga. 

NNR said something to the effect of:  Kilga and Mitsuki are the same faction.  Therefore we are assuming:  NNR is telling the truth, and that his information is correct. 

So let's go with that when we go into the vote analysis that Kilga asked for. 

Shadoweh (6): Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Darkninjaabc, Dormio
Kilgamayan (3): Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8
NekoNekoRex (1): SB
Not Voting (1): Kilgamayan

I am assuming I am town, naturally.  I didn't color anybody red though.  I just put in the greens as based off of assuming NNR is town, and therefore he has given the truth about his information. 

The question was:

Kilga

How plausible do you think either of those scenarios is? That we had dual-town wagons, and not only were all three scum on the same wagon, but they were on the self-destructive vanilla townie's wagon? Do you really think scum would sit there on vanilla Shadowy and make no effort whatsoever to get unclaimed Kilga (someone that half the players in this game have spent time propping as the greatest player that ever lived)  to at least claim, if not outright lynched?

I am assuming there are three scums. 

As we see it, two known townies voted to lynch Kilga.  There is only one name that's not confirmed.  Therefore, two unknown scums must have voted for Shadoweh.  That's Validon, Polaris, DNA, and Dormio. 
Today, DNA is pushing for a Kilga lynch, largely unsupported.  If the scums wanted to lynch Kilga, I think they would have had their chance yesterday.  Only Mitsuki made a case about it.  This was the scum chance.  Why didn't they do it?

A couple of reasons I can think of. 
#1 - They planned to kill Kilga off at night, and since Shadoweh wasn't one of theirs, there was no reason to risk all pilevoting at once. 
#2 - They were too scared to lynch Kilga because there wasn't enough town votes to hide amongst. 

I think in both of these scnenarios, Cheez8 is probably town. 
Following up on it:  If scum killed off either Kilga or Mitsuki tonight, naturally the one killed will appear as town.  Therefore we can assume the other one is town, if NNR is telling the truth. 

Let's look at the situation where NNR is telling a fib. 

Shadoweh (6): Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Darkninjaabc, Dormio
Kilgamayan (3): Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8
NekoNekoRex (1): SB
Not Voting (1): Kilgamayan

I assumed Mitsuki is town and Kilga is scum in this scenario because NNR posted the information to deflate Mitsuki's pressure on Kilga. 

In this scenario, why didn't the scum lynch Kilga?  Of course, it's because, they don't want to kill their own man.  I would also then green out the person Kilga is trying to lynch today (Cheez) because scums already used one ploy to try to validate Kilga (using NNR). Lynching their own teammate to buy more trust isn't necessary. 

Your last red is one of Validon, Polaris, DNA and Dormio.  In this story; DNA's pursuit of Kilga is a bit more murky.  But I wanna tip Dormio as red because he and NNR voted for me together earlier, AND they both voted for Shadoweh. 

The follow up of this is:  If scum killed off Mitsuki tonight, and town bought NNR's story, they would assume Kilga must be town - when he would in fact be a scum.  That would allow both NNR and Kilga to basically sneak into the 'accepted as town' group. 

Then we have option 3...NNR told a lie but Mitsuki is the scum.  I've also taken the liberty of coloring Mitsuki's (and my) target green. 

Shadoweh (6): Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Darkninjaabc, Dormio
Kilgamayan (3): Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8
NekoNekoRex (1): SB
Not Voting (1): Kilgamayan

In this scenario, scum wanted Kilga to NOT die on night 2 and for there to be some credible reason for us to think that he was targetted night 2 (note the lack of deaths).  NNR could then say "hey Kilga and Mitsuki are the same faction" and then whoever the doc is would go "hmm, I covered Kilga last night and nobody died = therefore he must be the one that was hit!" - in this scenario, there's no need to kill Kilga at night, and they pretty much guaranteed the doc would be wasted on Kilga for the rest of the game.  You know, unless Kilga actually is the doc, which would be hilarious.  Also. this scenario's premise - that NNR is scum - also raises some question marks, because NNR's statement came in to put pause to Mitsuki's challenges on Kilga.  It would be working at cross-purposes.  While I can see scum arguing against each other to buy town favor I can't see them actually blocking each other like this. 

Therefore, I think we can discount scenario 3.  In my two other scenarios, Mitsuki is town (even if NNR is not).  Previously I went along with Mitsuki because what she wrote felt right.  But now I'm also pretty damn sure she's town, even though I'm not sure of Kilga and NNR. 

I think that Mitsuki will be targetted tonight and want the doc to cover her. 
Scum shouldn't hit NNR, because scum know if he dies, we will know the truth of his claim, and therefore be able to use scenario 1 - Kilga and Mitsuki are both town.  I think the likelihood of NNR being target-lost is unreasonable, so if he is telling the truth, I think the information is credible. 
I also don't think we should lynch NNR at this point because if he is town, he can give us useful information in the future.  If he is scum, eventually his information will become contradicted.  So if NNR is lying, it's only good for another phase or two. 

So I want to consider scenario 2 as plausible, but scenario 1 is most likely (NNR is telling the truth, Kilga is town, Mitsuki is town). 

In scenario 1, there are at least two scums voting for Shadoweh.  That's two out of Polaris, Validon, DNA and Dormio.  Technically I'm an option, but I know I'm not scum ^_~  Of those four, Dormio reads the most scummy to me.  There's also a chance that Cheez8 is scum. 
In scenario 2, there are STILL two scums voting for Shadoweh.  There's NNR, and one of Polaris, Validon, DNA and Dormio.  Dormio still reads scummy.  Cheez8 gets cleared because Kilga's trying to kill him. 

There's also a scenario 4;;;NNR is scum and therefore knows Mitsuki and Kilga are both town, and just picked them to try and make NNR appear as town.  This is only really useful if NNR got killed off because then town would seriously suspect Kilga and Mitsuki.  Therefore, I think it's very unlikely as it's hard to use effectively. 

Well that's all the analysis time I get.  I blew it out a lot longer than 25 minutes ^___^  My vote is on Polaris for now.  I'm gonna go for now and see what tomorrow brings. 

[Mitsuki]

@ Mod: requesting replacement (also, please send me the graveyard QT)

Sorry guys, but I definitely can't handle both mafia and my IRL situation. My flatmates have insulted me  and my other flatmate and one of them has even pushed me. The flat's owner doesn't want to have anything to do with this all because they're her friends. They're becoming more passive-agressive day by day. I have to leave this place as soon as I can. (u_u)

My cases are totally the best though.

[Sky_Paladin]

Wow, I'm really shocked!  Good luck and I hope you find someplace good and safe.  Well, at least whoever comes into your slot will get my thumbs up

[DNAbc]

Sky. How are you helpibg town.
You are explainin gin detail and wifoming everyone into scumreads. Its like my current opinion on how messed up this game is but worse in that you are actually trying to persuade people.

The only concrete thing we have from you is tgat tou are town and cheez shoule be too but if hes scum you wont be responsible.

I feel what you are doing is just sidetrackiny town and to stir up crap.

Might have to actually read your prev psts

[Sky_Paladin]

Dark, did you even...never mind. 

If you are pushing Kilga, you can't ignore NNR's statement about his alignment with Mitsuki.  If Kilga is scum, then NNR very likely is too.  Please consider that in the greater scope of your analysis. 

If you trust NNR, then pushing for Kilga is just gosh darn illogical. 

[DNAbc]

I do not trust nnr by exxlusion but what i say is that we cannot afford another mistake now.

I am saying nnr with his null stance is scummy. What did nnr even say that makes you think hes so right and trustworthy. He went around parading on everyone including me so i remember that well.

In a nutshell i trust more what is modinfo. We see the vote analysis which us great. But why cant scum be all on a wagon. And why must i keep pushing kilgq. I suggested now i am not confident in my read on him. I dobt want to throw this game so i an droppin git now. We can akways lybch him later.

Stop being distrcting and force me to clarify the obviousz

[Kilgamayan]

Hey, PX, you should sub back into your slot. >_> Gonna response to the response regardless, as much as it may be moot now.

Kilga has said a lot of the time how they are such a great player

[citation needed]

Do I really have to stand people saying that my cases are terrible without actually pointing out why? Sigh.

Welcome to the club of everyone that has ever made a case on Shadowy! The orientation is tomorrow.

... what I meant was not just that, I said that scum would try to kill either you or Dark.

Well, scum in the N1 situation had no reason to kill DNA if they had a roleblocker handy. They would likely also then realize a doctor could easily come to the same conclusion, protect me, and decide to kill someone else.

I want my scumreads to answer to me properly and such, but encouraging them to form another wagon is something that I wouldn't even think of telling them to do. What's the point, anyways? It's not like a player trying to form another wagon on request is going to prove if they're town or not. And then you discouraged Serela's opinion on Polaris being scum because he wasn't getting lynched. I remember, and that's one of the actual parts of my cases I never got into.
All of that and the overall tone made me think what I thought.

It's not just the attempt to form a wagon, it's seeing the reasoning behind whatever case is made. If the attempt at a case is garbage, they're more likely to be scum. If the attempt at a case is actually thought through and reasonable, they're more likely to be town.

I will have some time later today between commitments to give mid-D2-to-now Validon a look-through, but unfortunately, that time is not now.

---

Unrelated to the above: I want everyone that hasn't already to weigh in on the votecount thing I discussed. The tl;dr version is that, if one accepts NNR's statement about Mitsuki and myself as true, then Cheez has to be scum by the way the End of Day 2 wagons shook down.

Reposting this for emphasis. Sky Paladin, in your assessment of this situation, you claim you believe both possible scenarios have Cheez as "likely town". Please directly address #831. Don't just throw out stuff like "it's too risky for scum!" Tell us WHY having even just one member of the scum team move over to me to try to get me to claim is "too risky".

I think this is what a lot of people aren't getting when they look at that votecount assessment. I'm not saying the entire scumteam would flop over from Shadowy to me with no explanation whatsoever. I am saying that the situation presented to an alleged scumteam of some three-person combination of Dormio, Polaris, Sky Paladin, DNA, Validon - Mitsuki's large case against me and Shadowy actually finally trying - an incredibly valid opportunity to at least try to pressure me to claim. Why was this not done, assuming that same scumteam? If you think just one person moving their vote to me was "too risky", tell me exactly why, because there was absolutely zero risk involved for DNA (who had just stated a healthy distaste for me) and near-zero risk involved for the rest of them (easy to look like Shadowy's sudden effort and Mitsuki's case made them rethink their stances).

[Cheez8]

I think this is what a lot of people aren't getting when they look at that votecount assessment. I'm not saying the entire scumteam would flop over from Shadowy to me with no explanation whatsoever. I am saying that the situation presented to an alleged scumteam of some three-person combination of Dormio, Polaris, Sky Paladin, DNA, Validon - Mitsuki's large case against me and Shadowy actually finally trying - an incredibly valid opportunity to at least try to pressure me to claim. Why was this not done, assuming that same scumteam? If you think just one person moving their vote to me was "too risky", tell me exactly why, because there was absolutely zero risk involved for DNA (who had just stated a healthy distaste for me) and near-zero risk involved for the rest of them (easy to look like Shadowy's sudden effort and Mitsuki's case made them rethink their stances).

If you're part of the scumteam, it would be "too risky" because they'd have nothing to gain from it at all.

Failing that... Well, it's hard to say. It's even harder to say when you consider me, a third townie, chiming in to pressure you even more. The only two options I can think of are either that the scum team didn't consider the possibility in time, or that the scumteam already had one of their people voting for you (specifically, Mitsuki.) I don't think that last option is too "out there" either- who says they had to wait until the pressure was already on to chime in? Why not create that pressure themselves?

[Sky_Paladin]

DNA

What did nnr even say that makes you think hes so right and trustworthy.

The post about NNR that I am referring to is this one.  His next post basically confirms he used some kind of role ability to confirm this.  This is no minor detail, so when you posted this it raised a lot of eyebrows.  Come to think of it, now that I've had some sleep and actually had time to read it, what you're saying is kind of wow.  Also, seeing as a posted a scenario that supports your suspicion against NNR and Kilga, I'm a little surprised you didn't give it more weight. 

Kilga

[citation needed]

Here's the most recent example.  There's more but I don't have time to go through the whole thread.  Mitsuki also called you on it earlier in day 3 iirc. 

Kilga

Reposting this for emphasis. Sky Paladin, in your assessment of this situation, you claim you believe both possible scenarios have Cheez as "likely town". Please directly address #831. Don't just throw out stuff like "it's too risky for scum!" Tell us WHY having even just one member of the scum team move over to me to try to get me to claim is "too risky".

In part it is because I'm not familiar with the detective role in this forum.  In Megatokyo, the detective can (during the day phase) find out how many scum voted for one particular player.  There is also no hammer, only the player with the most votes dies at phase end (so you can be lynched with 1 vote).  Not saying this is better, just different.  So, it was plausible to lynch inactives because the easiest way for scum to hide was to simply not vote and therefore can't get caught in the detective net. 

I don't know if there's a role like that in this game.  If there is, then splitting the votes, some for Shadoweh, some for you, is a smart move.  If they all voted for Shadoweh and Shadoweh's tally was check, we could go bam, three scums voted for Shadoweh, everybody else is town.  If that role exists, Cheez8 or Mitsuki is scum, and with NNR's evidence, it's Cheez8.  I can't argue against it. 

The risk I saw is implied in your post here.  In the day 2 lynch, we had Mitsuki, Shadoweh, and Cheez8 voting for you.  Scum knew Shadoweh would flip town.  (They didn't know, though, that NNR would make his post about you and Mitsuki the next day).  Assuming Cheez8 was town, and all three scums voted for you, it'd be Mitsuki, Cheeze, +3 scums.  That's five votes.  Could they have got a sixth?  It depends.  DNA might have voted for you.  Unless DNA and Cheeze are both scum.  In which case, they could only ever get Mitsuki, Cheeze, DNA, and one more for only four votes total.  They couldn't get a lynch on you over Shadoweh, because Shadoweh would get Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Dormio (DNA is not in this tally because he would vote for Kilga).  Finally, Kilga would get home five minutes later and vote for Shadoweh, for a five-five lynch split.  It would then be up to SB to randomly vote for Kilga or Shadoweh, or for one more town to switch. 

If they wanted to lynch you, it would be difficult.  They would have to make solid posts that would be scrutinised heavily.  Hell, I thought I put up an awesome tell for Shadoweh and look how it worked out for me.  I think it was too dangerous to push for your lynch, especially whey they didn't have anything to specifically gain from it.  EG if Shadoweh was scum and they were trying to save a scumbuddy, sure, push for you.  But in the choice between one towny or another towny, there's no reason for scum to stick their neck out to save any particular one or to kill of a specific person.  The public didn't know you or Shadoweh's role (Shadoweh claimed vanilla towny of course, but I never believe vanilla towny) so there was no STRATEGIC reason to push for you over Shadoweh.  That was the risk I saw.  It was too hard to push for your lynch, for the whole team to try to lynch you. 

The second side of this - the most obvious reason - is if that you were scum, of course they wouldn't lynch you~  But I think we are assuming that NNR told the truth at this stage, so that's why I'm looking at 'scenario 1' more than scenario 2.  I want scenario 2 considered, though, so we don't run off a bridge. 

But after all that, I have to admit I'm stumped.  I don't have a good reason why only one scum WOULDN'T vote for you.  Sure, I think DNA could vote for you, even if he's town.  So they'd get...Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8, DNA.  Four votes.  They needed two more.  If DNA was scum, then they could only get five.  If DNA is town and didn't vote you, they still could only get five. 

I guess the last point I could make is that there might not have been anybody in the scum team who felt credible enough to ask you to claim. 

So to sum up my points:  They didn't push for you because it was too difficult to pull off.  But I don't have a good response to: "Tell us WHY having even just one member of the scum team move over to me to try to get me to claim is "too risky"."  Hell, I can't even argue against "Why having even just one member of the scum team move over" :/ :/ splitting up votes is a good way to avoid associative reads. 

I've just gone and re-looked at my scenario's post. 

Perhaps scum ran out of time, like Cheez8 said in his cut ^_~  In which case, DNA might have been preparing to voteswitch.  But Shadoweh wanted you dead too, so. 

I don't know.  I can't argue why Cheez8 ISNT scum for voting you.  I only have enough scope for the whole scum team voting one way or the other.  I guess it makes sense that one of them voted for you to avoid association with the rest of the team. 

##Unvote
##Vote Cheez8

I agree with your reads that for the most part Cheez8 isn't contributing a whole lot.  However, I feel like I am trying hard but people like Dormio keep saying I'm not doing anything. 

This is really my last post I think for the phase; I'll get to check the tallies tomorrow morning but I'll be out of town most of the day.  I need to do a big reread of the whole thread - I just blurred over some stuff in the middle because of huge wall of text. There's never enough time. 

[NekoNekoRex]

I dunno why anyone would think I would gambit false information to softclear TWO of my gut scumreads. I'm not going to pull out my crumbs just to appease two scum trying to spread doubt on my role.

[NekoNekoRex]

Paladin reads as scum who is trying to avoid Death by PoE, with his comprehensive scenarios involving me lying.

Dark has either absolutely no idea what is going on or is just newbscum trying to point at many fingers as possible.

[NekoNekoRex]

Actually I might have to take the former back on grounds the offending post was part of Kilga's excercise, but I still am irked that Sky is the one to do it.

[NekoNekoRex]

Does anyone else find Dark to be scummy or at the very least incredulous for not properly reading the game?

[Cheez8]

Since you bring it up, I think this is a good time for me to call attention to one of Darkie's posts that I found sitting around in one of my tabs. Let's read a couple things from that post of his.

I seriously do not believe either validon nor serela wagon will be scum.
...
That said, I fully support lynching Serela, claim is weird and his way of sidetracking from what's the important thing (reads) in his posts goes :V . Scummier vibe.

##Vote Serela

Now, I can see where a townie could make this post, and how maybe, maybe the logic behind these statements could be coherent and innocent, just phrased a little strangely. However, let's scroll down to the next post, which is also his...

Null: polaris, kilga, serela, sb, px

He thinks Serela is a null read. Okay. That's stretching it a bit, but if Serela's a null read giving off scummy vibes, these posts can still line up. But what's this? Three posts down, in his next post...

And my vote on Serela is genuinely because I believe that he's scummy.

Well, that changed fast! Starting off with seriously believing Serela is not scum but voting for him despite that, then going straight to seriously believing that Serela is scum within a few posts. That just feels strange to me. Strange in a "somebody told me that there's no way my reasoning for voting Serela will fly so I'm going to switch to better reasoning and hope people will pay more attention to that" way. And here, I can only imagine one case where there's somebody around to tell him that.

This is certainly not the only reason I can come up with for why Darkie's potentially suspicious, but it's the only one I have on hand at the time. Picking through the rest of his posts and trying to differentiate between bad logic and scummy logic would be quite the daunting task.

I know Darkie's also somebody I said I had some level of confidence in, but there were two other things about that: One, I only had enough confidence in him that I said I'd wait until Day 3 to start humoring the possibility that he's lying, and two, the main post that made me think "Yeah, Darkie's totally town" came from Sky Paladin. Now that Sky Paladin is emerging as a suspect as well, I'm a little less confident in his reason given for Darkie's innocence.

[NekoNekoRex]

I am saying nnr with his null stance is scummy. What did nnr even say
 that makes you think hes so right and trustworthy. He went around parading on everyone including me so i remember that well.

I read everyone because that's kind of a requirement when I sub in. Do remember I have town reads as well as scum reads. My claim is trustworthy because I don't have any good reason to reverse two gutreads, make up a claim with a known rolecop in play, and because I have a bunch of crumbs. Trying to get one player off a scumbuddy's back by making up a completely arbitrary and vague fakeclaim is an expensive waste of information.

In fact the information I got was based on Mitsuki's massive jumping on Kilga, because I knew if they both were the same alignment, there could be no way they're both scum.

I could also cite a bunch of setup reasons why me lying would be really improbable, but Paladin's thoughts pretty well sum it up. If I'm scum, I have to keep putting out results and risking something screwing up.

-cut

Picking through the rest of his posts and trying to differentiate between bad logic and scummy logic would be quite the daunting task.

To be fair, I think this is one of the core challenges of trying to find scum in a Mafia game. There's always a possibility of a townie fucking up and getting lynched for it.

[BT]

Votecount 3.5

Cheez8 (4): Polaris, Kilgamayan, Validon98, Sky_Paladin
Sky_Paladin (2): Dormio, Cheez8
Polaris (1): Mitsuki
Kilgamayan (1): Darkninjaabc
Darkninjaabc (1): NekoNekoRex

It's 5 to lynch and 34 hours remaining.
(Countdown)

[NekoNekoRex]

Dark's posts so far have either been contradictory, uninformed, or a load of bullshit, though. I go back to this post to hilight exactly how bad his posts are. No scumread should be based on "x is scum because there wasn't a kill last night"

[NekoNekoRex]

Actually I might just claim anyway since everyone seems to have figured out exactly what my role does at this point, or at least I've probably implied it really heavily, just so I can release my crumbs and make my statement rock-solid.

[Cheez8]

To be fair, I think this is one of the core challenges of trying to find scum in a Mafia game. There's always a possibility of a townie fucking up and getting lynched for it.

Good point. It just seems more difficult and time consuming in Darkie's particular case.

Might as well claim, I suppose. You're at least partway there already, so clearing up details sounds like a good idea.

I seem to be at L-1. I should pay more attention.