Touhou Project 12.5 - ダブルスポイラー ~ Double Spoiler. A spoiling article, ayaya

[N-Forza]

This is divine retribution for everyone who would put "ze" at the end of every line Marisa would say in scanslations.

Not interested in getting a translator fucked with view of character's personalities, in all honesty.

So learn Japanese yourself.

[Letty Whiterock]

This is divine retribution for everyone who would put "ze" at the end of every line Marisa would say in scanslations.

I'm with you.

[IcedFairy]

This is divine retribution for everyone who would put "ze" at the end of every line Marisa would say in scanslations.

Somehow I don't think they're the ones being punished here.

[Barrakketh]

Yeah, I'm happy with how it turned out. I apparently didn't notice the 10 minute limit in YouTube's upload conditions (up to 1GB, but no longer than 10 minutes?) so I had to trim off the last 2 minutes and 49 seconds. In Linux, this means using Kino and ffmpeg.

Try looking at the "-ss" and "-t" switches for ffmpeg   Or "-ss" and "-endpos" for mencoder.

So learn Japanese yourself.

If someone wanted to upload updated tools for the patches I'm sure some people wouldn't mind fixing the valley girl stuff their selves.

The last time I looked they were several installments behind, and much to my horror (for educational purposes) the source code was more or less undocumented.  I'll admit that I hadn't looked since the SA patch was released, but at the time I think only the games up through IN were supported.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I don't really care if the translations make her talk like, like, a valley girl or not, because I'm going to imagine her talking like one from now on anyway regardless of the text :V

[Matsuri]

What the hell, Satori. Stop "Perfect Maid"ing me. D:

Don't aim. Get close, take picture. It's so easy.

[Nobu]

So learn Japanese yourself.

Get off your high pedestal. That's such BS reasoning. Are you translating as a service, or just to stroke your own ego?

"Well, since you don't know Japanese you have to take my translations as word of god and like it, so nyah" is basically what i'm seeing here.

[Hawk]

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Double_Spoiler:_Miscellaneous

There it details a method for creating a batch file so your application data is stored in a folder underneath the folder that holds th125.exe, which is cool, but it's not working for me, and I was wondering if anyone familiar with batch commands could tell me why.  th125.exe is in some folder deep in my D drive, and, by default, the Application Data is sent to my C drive.  With the batch file, now it saves to D:\stuff\user ("stuff" is one of the folders in the hierarchy leading to th125.exe), which is closer, but still not all that great.

Any super geniuses around?

Edit: Ah, got it.  If anyone else is having this problem, try changing 'cd' to '.\'.

[Azinth]

People actually care about the dialogue in Touhou games?  How silly.


And OT late reply:

I found that Marisa's other bomb is pretty much a guaranteed "you pass this spellcard/destroy everything on screen" button.. Hence the point being moot. I mean it wont solo a spellcard alone, but you use it on the first wave of bullets, keep shooting, and then the boss will be hacking by the next wave.

lgb was probably referring to the fact that MarisaB is one of the best characters at scoring.  Master spark is the best bomb for collecting items during stage portions(lol Extra books).

[Matsuri]

Oh god, SP-9 is so much fun @_@

[Naut]

So learn Japanese yourself.

You took that in the most wrong way you possibly could've, but ok, feel free to keep shitting on character personalities. Whatever you want bro.

Hope somebody else is translating the game.

[Lucarius]

Been reading some of the arguing going on about translations.

I haven't, and probably won't see the actual text until I buy the game (or never will).

A translator translates as a service, nothing more.
A translator translates according to the given text, no matter how obscene, retarded, or idiotic the text may sound.

Readers who don't know the languages in question are wrong by saying "a translation is overdone or sounds retarded" for two reasons.
1) They have no evidence.
2) They are merely putting their own translational tastes over another person's.

Even those who do know Japanese will be subjected to 2).

Every translation will at all times be subjected to the translator in somewhat shape or form.
Arguing about one translational taste over the other is fruitless.
If one believes that a translation is "wrong," he/she must at least know the languages in question, and should never trash someone's translation by calling a taste "fucked up." Just state his/her own translations as an advice for the ultimate goal of making the translation better.

In essence, a translator is doing his work as a mere service. A translator deserves no barbaric words such as "fucked up" against his/her translation. A translator is, by all means, not wrong in telling those that trash the work of another translator, to go learn the language yourself.

So yeah I would say the same. If people called my translations "fucked up," I would either go tell them to learn Japanese themselves in the most polite manner possible like N-Forza did, or tell them to go fuck their own retarded minds.

Ego? More like simple manners. Only barbarians would go tell people who do service for them that their services are "fucked up."

Seriously. Just be happy someone's taking the time to translate it. :|

I would say this, but there just always are people who don't like certain translations.

So.

They don't have to be happy about it, but they shouldn't throw garbage words at people who are trying to do services for them.
If you got a problem, help us do better. If you can't help, or can only pester us, then keep your mouths shut.

They're overdoing it just a bit, I'm thinking.

This is fine. It's not annoying, it's nice, and it's not barbaric.



As for the actual translation in question.
I'm assuming that the new character speaks in ギャル語 or something. If so, then I see no problem with the "like" and the "totally."

Again, I used "us" in this post, because I have translation experience. However, I don't know Double Spoiler at all, nor do I wish to until I have the game, so I can't say anything accurate or precise about the translation in question.

[Matsuri]

Seriously. Just be happy someone's taking the time to translate it. :|

[ebarrett]

All of you arguing about the translation go read Borges' "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote". Now.
[/highbrow]

[Drake]

My turn.

I'm fine with adding the speech pattern in the translation. It expands her depth of character and is a good method of keeping her manner of speech. However, I doubt it's the main reason why people are complaining. It's more because how it looks right now is really, really overdone. No, translators do not "deserve" to have people say they "fucked up", but what's displayed right now looks really rash and makes her sound retarded. Her true manner of speech, as far as I can see... does not make her sound retarded. There's quite a difference between giving her character and completely altering the way the western fanbase views her. If the official game is translated as something, nearly all works that follow will keep that. I, along with probably everyone else who's complaining, would simply rather that you don't go completely overboard in your freedom of translation.

Just tone it down. No need to get rid of your intentions, just tone it down.

[Lucarius]

No, translators do not "deserve" to have people say they "fucked up", but what's displayed right now looks really rash and makes her sound retarded. Her true manner of speech, as far as I can see... does not make her sound retarded.

I forget, but don't you do translations as well?
Can't you be the one to fix this problem?

[Barrakketh]

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Double_Spoiler:_Miscellaneous

There it details a method for creating a batch file so your application data is stored in a folder underneath the folder that holds th125.exe, which is cool, but it's not working for me, and I was wondering if anyone familiar with batch commands could tell me why.  th125.exe is in some folder deep in my D drive, and, by default, the Application Data is sent to my C drive.  With the batch file, now it saves to D:\stuff\user ("stuff" is one of the folders in the hierarchy leading to th125.exe), which is closer, but still not all that great.

Any super geniuses around?

Edit: Ah, got it.  If anyone else is having this problem, try changing 'cd' to '.\'.

Are you sure you didn't make a typo?  %CD% and .\ should effectively be the same thing (%CD% being a string with the current working directory, "." being a reference to the CWD.

If one believes that a translation is "wrong," he/she must at least know the languages in question

Keep in mind that there is a difference between whether the the translated text itself is accurate to the extent to that it retains the same meaning in both the source and target languages, and whether any changes to the style of the text (including accents that a character may speak/write with) are necessarily appropriate.

It might not be incorrect for her to be using "like" or "totally", but that also doesn't mean that some changes to tone it down or change it to something a little less grating for the reader would be incorrect, either.

As such, it's something that could be changed later by an editor with no knowledge of Japanese (which is usually the case when it comes to scanlations and fansubs) so long as they have some knowledge of how the character speaks, which could be given in some annotations by the translator or by being familiar with the character from previous works.  Naturally, this doesn't mean we should have a bunch of people screwing around with it since consistency in the final product is desirable.

[N-Forza]

Actually, I do agree that the current translations are overdoing it just a little bit now that the novelty as worn off. I'll see about convincing the others to tone it down a bit.

And I really don't have to share my work at all. I do it mostly to practice my own Japanese, and I just happen to like translating on the wiki because other people who know Japanese can go over it and make changes when I inevitably make a mistake.

[Drake]

I forget, but don't you do translations as well?
Can't you be the one to fix this problem?

My japanese isn't as up to scratch as you or Forza (probably even Nobu is better than I), and I doubt I'd be extraordinarily helpful. I'm busy with other things as well, so...

Sorry if I'm fairly useless, haha.

[Be Pok U (1998 burst style)]

Anyone can fix it right now; simply with removing the excessive interjections. Isn't what we're arguing with is just whether or not should people be going in and making that change. ?

Excessive use of valspeak does have horrible implications to the person using it after all, yes? like, stupid, shallow and spoiled.

But for me, I just can't read the damn thing; it hurts my retinas.  :ohdear:

[N-Forza]

Excessive use of valspeak does have horrible implications to the person using it after all, yes? like, stupid, shallow and spoiled.

Given her preferred method of making newspapers (GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH), it kind of fits in my opinion.

V I saw someone reverse an edit that took them out, but I thought it was because they removed all traces of that speech pattern.

[Drake]

Note that some idiots on Touhouwiki are attempting to force people to keep the overuse of like totally. Someone not random is going to have to tell them off.

[Be Pok U (1998 burst style)]

Note that some idiots on Touhouwiki are attempting to force people to keep the overuse of like totally. Someone not random is going to have to tell them off.

But isn't someone not random also trying to force keeping the excessive use?  :V

[Lucarius]

Keep in mind that there is a difference between whether the the translated text itself is accurate to the extent to that it retains the same meaning in both the source and target languages, and whether any changes to the style of the text (including accents that a character may speak/write with) are necessarily appropriate.

It might not be incorrect for her to be using "like" or "totally", but that also doesn't mean that some changes to tone it down or change it to something a little less grating for the reader would be incorrect, either.

As such, it's something that could be changed later by an editor with no knowledge of Japanese (which is usually the case when it comes to scanlations and fansubs) so long as they have some knowledge of how the character speaks, which could be given in some annotations by the translator or by being familiar with the character from previous works.  Naturally, this doesn't mean we should have a bunch of people screwing around with it since consistency in the final product is desirable.

This:

Primary: original work
Secondary: original work translated by someone who knows the language
Tertiary: original work translated by someone who knows the work off of a translated work by someone who knows the language

Crucial in all meanings of the term, translation.

If you're shooting for accuracy, primary is best, followed by secondary, followed by tertiary. I would consider tertiary to be unreliable, in terms of reliable or unreliable.

However, if you're shooting for what the readers want to read, then it doesn't matter what sources you use. It just won't be accurate.


By the way, I didn't know that tertiary sources were being used to translate this for the Western. It explains why I find all of these inaccuracies all over the place. I already find secondary sources to be unreliable under many circumstances, including my own translations.

Anyone can fix it right now; simply with removing the excessive interjections.

Who decides what interjections are excessive, and what interjections are not?

Sure it's nice if all sources can come up with the same answers, but it's given here that they cannot. The person who made this first translation of Double Spoiler in the first place must have thought that these interjections were all necessary. Why else would he/she put these interjections in the first place?


Again, I don't know what's wrong or what's right with the current translation. The translators from this forum can do whatever they like with these translations. I just didn't like how they trashed another person's translated works.

[Ruka]

Note that some idiots on Touhouwiki are attempting to force people to keep the overuse of like totally. Someone not random is going to have to tell them off.

It's fine the way it's used right now. That's probably because I'm not hearing it come off as excessive but still keeping the tone that's currently in place.

[Be Pok U (1998 burst style)]

Who decides what interjections are excessive, and what interjections are not?

Since, we're talking about the wiki. Anyone.  :V

Its like talking about whether or not a scanlator has the right to change the word and tone of a translation to fit the story telling purposes better.

Or simply, things like readability.  :ohdear:

[Nobu]

A translator translates as a service, nothing more.
A translator translates according to the given text, no matter how obscene, retarded, or idiotic the text may sound.

Readers who don't know the languages in question are wrong by saying "a translation is overdone or sounds retarded" for two reasons.
1) They have no evidence.
2) They are merely putting their own translational tastes over another person's.

Even those who do know Japanese will be subjected to 2).

Every translation will at all times be subjected to the translator in somewhat shape or form.
Arguing about one translational taste over the other is fruitless.
If one believes that a translation is "wrong," he/she must at least know the languages in question, and should never trash someone's translation by calling a taste "fucked up." Just state his/her own translations as an advice for the ultimate goal of making the translation better.

In essence, a translator is doing his work as a mere service. A translator deserves no barbaric words such as "fucked up" against his/her translation. A translator is, by all means, not wrong in telling those that trash the work of another translator, to go learn the language yourself.

I've been probably one of the most outspoken about this, so let me respond. My Japanese isn't the best, but i've been studying it for six years so I feel like I at least can comment on the translation work being done. I agree that translation work is a service that should be appreciated, but I also believe that a good translations shouldn't take too much liberty with the original content, and try to convey the original to the best of their ability without introducing too much personal original content.

I was going to write something else here, but it would mainly be a rephrasal of what Drake said.

So yeah I would say the same. If people called my translations "fucked up," I would either go tell them to learn Japanese themselves in the most polite manner possible like N-Forza did, or tell them to go fuck their own retarded minds.

They don't have to be happy about it, but they shouldn't throw garbage words at people who are trying to do services for them.
If you got a problem, help us do better. If you can't help, or can only pester us, then keep your mouths shut.

I don't approve of people bashing the translators just because they don't like something either, but just to set the record straight, both sides have been less than polite about this so far (heavy doses of sarcasm on both sides at least). I've been putting forth my opinion about the excessive use of 'like' and the warping of the original content, but the response was basically "deal with it, I like the valley girl thing so it stays" and getting blown off. To me, that's beyond performing a service because you're not even listening to the people that you're doing the service for.

I think the benefactors of translators should be appreciative, but the translators should still be open to feedback and opinions and not be stuck in their ways. It's a two way street.

As for the actual translation in question.
I'm assuming that the new character speaks in ギャル語 or something. If so, then I see no problem with the "like" and the "totally."

Again, I used "us" in this post, because I have translation experience. However, I don't know Double Spoiler at all, nor do I wish to until I have the game, so I can't say anything accurate or precise about the translation in question.

The new character actually doesn't use ギャル語 at all、but talks with a more casual conversational style, using a lot of ねー、なー、もん、and extended syllables like あまーい。

Actually, I do agree that the current translations are overdoing it just a little bit now that the novelty as worn off. I'll see about convincing the others to tone it down a bit.

And I really don't have to share my work at all. I do it mostly to practice my own Japanese, and I just happen to like translating on the wiki because other people who know Japanese can go over it and make changes when I inevitably make a mistake.

Thank you. If the 'like' usage was an occassional thing, I wouldn't have really spoken up much. But literally every single sentence bar a couple has 'like' in it, and in weird places for some. It's awkward and unnatural. This is just my opinion, but i'm hardly the only one who shares it.

Also, sorry if I was a bit offending with my earlier remarks, was a bit peeved and felt like I was just getting blown off there. :/

Again, I don't know what's wrong or what's right with the current translation. The translators from this forum can do whatever they like with these translations. I just didn't like how they trashed another person's translated works.

I think the strong bashing wasn't directed at the translated works themselves, but more the whole 'getting blown off' part.

[Lucarius]

The new character actually doesn't use ギャル語 at all、but talks with a more casual conversational style, using a lot of ねー、なー、もん、and extended syllables like あまーい。

So a スイーツ（笑） person. I thought it was ギャル because of what she was holding, if I remember correctly. I'm being tempted to look at the texts, but I still won't do so （＾ω＾）

I think the strong bashing wasn't directed at the translated works themselves, but more the whole 'getting blown off' part.

I'm not fond of the touhou wiki, nor did I read this entire thread. I apologize if I was off the mark.


Oh, and of course. A translator must always translate for the sake of accurate and precise translating. As long as he/she has that in mind, there should be no worries about derailing into personal original content. Unless if he/she sucks at translating. I don't really know how a person can suck at translating per se. If a person is inaccurately translating to such an extreme extent, that person would definitely know the translation is inaccurate.

[Hawk]

Are you sure you didn't make a typo?  %CD% and .\ should effectively be the same thing (%CD% being a string with the current working directory, "." being a reference to the CWD.

I copy-pasted it directly from the wiki, which now seems to have changed.  Maybe the new version works?  I dunno; I found an edit that works for me, so I'm not going to mess with it any more.

A note, though: what the wiki used to show wasn't

%CD%

but

'CD'

with the single quotes.  I don't know batch commands, so I don't know the difference, but that's the way it was.

[Nobu]

Oh, and of course. A translator must always translate for the sake of accurate and precise translating. As long as he/she has that in mind, there should be no worries about derailing into personal original content. Unless if he/she sucks at translating. I don't really know how a person can suck at translating per se. If a person is inaccurately translating to such an extreme extent, that person would definitely know the translation is inaccurate.

That's the part that got me all riled up, because I was under the impression the excessive 'like' use was done out of personal amusement as opposed to being as accurate and precise as reasonably possible, and I've been offered no justification for why it's necessary aside from "trying to spice things up". I guess the reverse equivalent would be taking a casual American male's dialog and translating it into the style of a full blown Yakuza member.