Jojo's Bizarre Mafia: GAME OVER, ROLES WIN!

[UncertainJakutten]

The Fifth "Stardust Crusaders" Vote Count

Lady LambdaDelta (2): Dormio, Edible
Omba (3): Affinity, Schezo, Capt. h
Zakeri (0)
ActionDan (3): Shadoweh, PX, Zakeri
PX (0)
capt.h (1): Serpentarius
Schezo (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Kitten4U (0)
Shadoweh (0)
Dormio (2): LLD, Omba
Affinity (1): Kitten4U
Edible (0)
UncertainKitten (1): ActionDan

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Game Day One Ends at 1:00 AM, EDT, Thursday (today is Wednesday)

[Kitten4u]

~*~Set-up Speculation~*~
Is incredibly silly.  I think we should make ourselves a soft deadline because I think taking too long could potentially be bad.  72 hour soft deadline seems reasonable to me.  I also think we should be more wary of "deadline hammers" as well since our deadline isn't hard like it is in most games.  Not saying that hammers are the devil since we DO need to come to a consensus eventually, but they are a little different this game.

Miller Claim
Lambda played it right.  Either claiming miller in the first post or trying to be so freakishly town that you get NKed early are the two generally accepted ways to play it, so I don't have a problem with the claim (the former is considered the "safe" way to do it if I'm not mistaken).  With that said, I actually read Dormio's vote as null.  If you're really completely convinced that he's scum then I'm going to need more than "Dormio is Durrmio" to be convinced.  Because we already know that he has no idea how to handle millers. 

With that said, I think Lambda looks better, but I wouldn't vote for either of them at this point.

K4U leaping at a joke vote, Dan not voting or giving an opinion on K4U, and K4U concentrating on minor points.

It was page 2.  High standards much? :|  As for everything else, Kitten4u lurking is null.  Kitten4u being insane and trying to improve her game is also null.  What do you actually think of the exchange?  Seriously, there's like no opinions anywhere there.  It's all been IIoA and saying stuff that everyone knows like "Kitten4u generally lurks."  The only opinion there (Kitten4u more town than Dan) isn't even backed up by something satisfactory.  Trying to use meta when someone is going completely against their meta regardless of alignment is incredibly silly.

Actually, I dislike just about everything you say.  You say that Omba provided no opinions when he had actually provided several.  I don't think this can be a result of misreading unless you're like, not reading the game.  You also fail to provide any of your own opinions for...like everything.  Is Lambda scum?  You seemed to think so when you said you agreed with Dormio, but then you backed off in the sentence directly after it.  You don't provide any of your own opinions on the things you asked Omba about.  I already addressed what was wrong with your next post and your next post isn't any better.  I still can't figure out why any townie would vote for someone not in the spat that they say is scum vs town.

##Unvote
##Vote Capt h

There's something bothering me about Zak and Shadoweh, but I can't figure out what it is right now.  I'll see if I can figure it out later, going through their posts several times hasn't helped me yet.

Warning - while you were typing 8 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
orz

[Shadoweh]

I'm going to need more than "Dormio is Durrmio" to be convinced.  Because we already know that he has no idea how to handle millers.

That's pretty much my take on him too. So it would be good if we broke up this wonderful tunnelfight. Dormio, your twitter feed is all one-way, you should tell me about your thoughts on everyone now. Especially directly after one of my posts.

There's something bothering me about Zak and Shadoweh, but I can't figure out what it is right now.  I'll see if I can figure it out later, going through their posts several times hasn't helped me yet.

:< Am I not being angry enough for you? It's hard to be grr when everything feels so mellow and the room is all spinny x.x

[Kitten4u]

If I knew what the problem was I would have complained about it by now.

[capt. h]

@Capt. H
Why are you voting for Omba and not either Dan or me if you think our spat wasn't town vs town?

I've already answered that:

I don't think Dan v. K4U is town v. town, and I think Dan is likely to be scum as a result. However, the way you (Omba) post null reads on the actions of a lot of other players and not really commit to any opinions on them is worse.

@Serp

capt. h: Your Omba vote looks scummy to me. At the time you placed it, you were guilty of the same thing you were accusing him of. Now he's explained his thought process, and you've explained yours. You're on even ground as far as your explanations of your stances are, and your most recent post said more about Dan's scumminess than it did about Omba's. It looks like you're just parking your vote.

I voted Omba because I thought he was active lurkscum - he didn't have many reads on anyone, and half of them were null. When I asked him to clarify his reads and asked him for specific points about other players, he somewhat dodged the questions by continuing to explain that his reads were null, before going on to vote for Dormio for targetting a claimed miller. I still think he's the most likely scum.



@K4U - I don't think Dormio is scum, if only because I agreed with a lot of his points on LLD. Between her miller claim and the rage posts, LLD is hard for me to read. I'd like to hear both their reads on the other players first.

And with that, I'm off to bed.

[Schezo]

Thank you Omba for clearing up some things for me.  I feel better about you, enough to
##Unvote:
however, it would be nice to hear some more non null tell things from you.

So let's take a look at the major events today.
LLD: Admits to setting up traps and trapping.  Faaaabulous.  However, that's not to say there isn't something wrong here.  Despite her active and extremely vocal play, it seems to have incurred scrutiny from lots of people.  I've seen her misrepresented a few times and that is setting alarms off.
misrep{ [A] --> [C]   [A] --> [C]
                }
I agree that millers should claim in their first post but what happened next trapping and all is just argh.  She does bring in good points that make sense but I would like for less tunnely, more, other people.

Dormio: There is a reason I'm picking The witch over you is because you both are tunneling but you have invalid points that you are pushing and hers seem more valid.  Like the middle of this:

I apologize for being unable to reply instantly to your points, especially if you post them en masse. I suppose replying slowly makes me scum.

There's no need for comments like that, and it borders appeal to emotion.  I'll also answer that in that post it would be better for miller to claim before they are copped and cop goes, "I got guilty" and they respond, "But I'm miller" since that makes much more sense.
  Making points after they have been suggested by others doesn't improve my view of you.  I'm highly confident about something scummy is going on between you two.  Although I'm leaning LLB I can't say for certain unless you two start making cases on others.
Super nonexistant second vote: Dormio

Shadoweh: I don't like this.  At the first lines, in essence, no, it doesn't.  These are the kind of phrases and words that scum can drop and get rises out of people to be led to mislynch.

Capt.H: If that's what you were voting Omba for, just say it.  To me your vote just seems a bit too opportunistic to follow Affinity and my votes, one being a jokevote and mine a prod for clarification more or less.  When you easily have to opportunity to add active lurking along with your blatant misrep here, you don't.  This easily allows for scum backtracking like you just did and I don't trust your character for it.
##Vote: capt. h

Should I setup speculate about stuff I don't really know much about too?  I guess so,
I imagine this will play out like DtB except without the whole deadline thing.  Lynch, then scumnightkill after a day ends and that's about it.  Should we rush 24-48 lynches, no I don't really think so, the 72 hour deadline has always seemed to work in the past before so I'll say keep to this schedule and only detain if we have something hot going on and have to carry over into a 96 hour day.

[UncertainJakutten]

The Sixth "Beginning of Day Two" Vote Count

Mod Note: DAY TWO BEGINS.

Lady LambdaDelta (2): Dormio, Edible
Omba (2): Affinity, Capt. h
Zakeri (0)
ActionDan (3): Shadoweh, PX, Zakeri
PX (0)
capt.h (3): Serpentarius, Kitten4U, Schezo
Schezo (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Kitten4U (0)
Shadoweh (0)
Dormio (2): LLD, Omba
Affinity (0)
Edible (0)
UncertainKitten (1): ActionDan

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Game Day Two Ends at 1:00 AM, EDT, Friday

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh: I don't like this.  At the first lines, in essence, no, it doesn't.  These are the kind of phrases and words that scum can drop and get rises out of people to be led to mislynch.

Yeah, actually, it kind of does. To clarify, the core of the argument is "Dormio attacked Lambda for claiming Miller, and Lambda thinks this was scummy of him." This argument doesn't work to prove Scumio if someone believes that claiming Miller is a scummy action. I can think of much better reasons to vote Dormio then reacting to game mechanics. I also think Lambda sounds pretty town (WHICH MEANS SHE IS ACTUALLY OBVSCUM OMG) so I'm not interested in pushing mislynches.

[Serp]

capt. h:  I'm not really buying it.  You didn't say anything about that reasoning for thinking him scum in your response post, just as you didn't say anything to his response to your points on him in his #113 just now.  All in all, it just seems like you've parked your vote on him and are defending it in a reactionary manner.  It doesn't come across as honest scumhunting.

Lambda:  When you get this, respond to my question from before your last post.  Specifically, why do you think scum want to go after the Miller so badly?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Okay, hi.
Firstly, the miller thing. Edible and Kitten4u say that Lamda went the right way about playing miller, and Schezo says why.
I suppose it makes sense, thinking about it in that way.
I guess I need say sorry for being a bit rash and only seeing things my way.
##Unvote
*Dormio sighs*
Anyway, let's move on from that.

capt. h!
Your posts are extremely fluffy!
In your first post, you call out Omba for saying nothing about stuff that's been happening. Guess who else also hasn't said anything!
Sure, I guess you can say that you mentioned LSLD's miller claim in that post, but what you said in regards to it amounts to nothing but fence sitting!
In your next two posts, you proceed to build a case against ActionDan! Naturally you follow this up by... continuing to vote Omba?

@Capt. H
Why are you voting for Omba and not either Dan or me if you think our spat wasn't town vs town?

I've already answered that:

I think Dan is likely to be scum

Sense! This interaction reeks of it!
You have all but outright stated that you think that ActionDan is scum, yet when people question you about why you're not voting for ActionDan, you seem to avoid really addressing it with "but Omba was all waffle-y".

Speaking of which, Omba!

Only I don't think we have any way of knowing which one it is.
Which pretty much makes it a nulltell.

Is everything a nulltell to you?
K4u v. ActionDan? Null.
LLD's miller claim? Null.
Me not liking the miller claim? Null. (At first, anyway. Your first non-null read, congratulations!)

##Vote capt. h


Huh, this post took a while to write.

Isn't is sad, Dormio? Now everyone will know about your secret bloomers collection, and that you wear them when you're alone~

이게 비밀이었어?

Isn't is sad, Dormio? Now everyone will know about your secret bloomers collection, and that you wear them when you're alone~

That was the secret?

[Shadoweh]

Hum. Dormio, what are your opinions on the rest of the players? What do you think of Edible, Kitten4me and Schezo's posts themselves? Do you think anything else about Lambda's play is enough to clear her towninesswise?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I still think that Lambda's claim is a large keg of wine. However, after reading it over with a cooler head, I realize my attempt to have her killed basically boils down to a policy lynch. And policy lynches are bad. Ergo, I need to apologize for that.

Schezo: I believe that his posts, whilst sparse, do make sense.
I'm wondering if he could clarify what capt. h's "blatant misrep" in this post was though.

Blehdibleh: I don't really like how Bledibleh doesn't have a case on anyone right now. ~*~Timezones~*~ may be in effect here, so I want to wait a bit more on this.

Kitten4u: Similar to Schezo, I think she's town.

[Schezo]

You say that Omba provided no opinions when he had actually provided several.  I don't think this can be a result of misreading unless you're like, not reading the game.

Pretty much this, he claims Omba didn't make any opinions when he, in fact, did.

This carries the implication that somehow what you have done has made you obvious town.

This is what I'm still going to disagree with you about.  These are the type of comments that can be slipped into otherwise whole truths and make people begin to doubt reads on others without remembering what set stuff off in the first place, because this is an unfair and illogical statement to make when she in fact did not do this.

[Shadoweh]

Why does Kitten get to be a full-quote and I don't even get capitalization -.- In any case I disagree with you, even if it was not stated, it's the stance the argument started from. Amusingly it's why I don't have a problem with her, just her arguments. Hum, I went to go look at these Omba opinions to see what the fuss is about. Schezo, in your personal non-Kitteny opinion, what DOES Omba think? I'm reading back on before capt.h posted and seeing alot of null-tells.

Hey Dormio, so who do you get -bad- scummy feelings from? Besides capt.h of course. Just curious.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Shadoweh: For now, Blehdibleh, though I want to wait on this.
So far he's made one case on Lambda and, to be honest, I have no idea what he thinks of Lambda right now.
Because "Well, at least you admit it." doesn't really tell us much about what's going on in his head.

[ActionDan]

Sorry guys for not posting sooner, I blame my country's internal affairs department.  I have been following the thread though, so I made a case last night that still carries over to today. 

Perhaps unsurprisingly, it's on Shadoweh.

My early posts mainly wanted town to consider and resolve one issue:

We have the option to lynch people not directly in the game, and I was wondering if anybody was actually going to consider that seriously as I did (this line of argument made sense at the time).  As a serious option to secure a "lynch" without voting for a player at the end of the day, I was also looking out for reactions to the idea. 

Furthermore, I don't think it's a bad option at all. 

What does town think of this?  Especially Shadoweh, since you have expressed interest in a no lynch scenario.

I am not familiar with nightless setups (having only played 2 forum mafia games on this site), so I wanted 2nd opinions.  And happily enough, I got them:

As for lynching someone not in the game I think it's a bad idea.  UK's description of the game doesn't suggest that level of bastardlyness.

And to answer your question related to that, Dan, no I don't think we should lynch in 24 hours. I imagine we don't want to take too long either, but shortening the time between lynches that much will garner us paniced mislynches and happy scum kills. I'm rather partial to my three day cycles.

These are perfectly reasonable opinions, and other townies have since agreed.  So a majority if not all of the town have agreed that A) we should not quick lynch a player not playing the game (because apparently in nightless setups a townie lynch immediately gives scum a kill [I wasn't even thinking in these terms at all  :ohdear:, but now I know]) and B) try to give 48-72 time intervals for discussion before a lynch on our playerbase (in order not to take too much time).  That has now been settled.  Hooray!  This is what I wanted to establish in the RVS stage.

Now, some of you voted me because me suggesting a quick lynch would mean a scum kill as well, which from a Townie's perspective is undeniably bad .  Let me point out that Shadoweh, although the first to attack and vote for me, did not mention this at all before Omba did.

In fact Shadoweh voted for me for not voting Kitten when I found her post to be scummy.

I can't tell, are you accusing Kitten of attacking you? It looks kinda like that, it it's missing a vote to go with it. See, like this:
##Vote: Action Dan

Actually, it's not even phrased correctly like, "I can't tell, are you accusing Kitten of being scummy?"  Does that mean that Shadoweh also thinks K4U attacking me was scummy?  It's simply not as clear as it could be.  Clearly Kitten attacked me, and I was the one to fill in the gap.

Shadoweh,  I keep thinking of the Game Day ending as a Pseudo-deadline.  I am not accusing Kitten4u of attacking me, she did so, and she freely admits to such.  That much is obvious.  What I pointed out was that the way she went about it, did not strike me as above-board.   Hence our spat, which tried to infur what the other was thinking.

Shadoweh, do I need to vote someone for that to "count"?  And is this the sole reason you are voting me as well, for you see, it kinda looks like it .

The second I call her out on it, she proceeds to proceeds to be reactionary much more so than I was, even referencing OMGUS. Still no where does she say that my suggestion is scummy, but instead misreps me by doctoring my intentions.

Take a look at Omba's #65. This is the first time it is mentioned that lynching someone out of the game in a fast time period will give scum a kill.

4 minutes later Shadoweh exclaims that Omba's explaination of why it is bad to quicklynch a non-player was her reason for thinking me scummy.  Yet that was never mentioned directly beforehand, only that I sounded "weird."  About Kitten:  after our spat, I believe that she is a townie trying to understand and answer my concerns.  It's unforunate I never directly stated this, but certainly it should have been obvious at the time that I thought Shadoweh was scummier and still do now (and still think K4U is town).

##Vote: Shadoweh

As for our other townies:  I think Omba is more than not town.  This is result from clear and town like opinions and stances.  LLD/Dormio.  Gut says that this is a turkey shoot for scum (and I am examining those who attack one or the other).  I don't think it's in town's best interest to lynch one of these.  If I had to choose however, I'd choose Dorimo as the scum.  Why? because while a townie can look at a miller claim and go, "that's odd," who would actually say "HEY WHAT's UP WITH THAT?" and vote immediately?  (Unless you all are going to just tell me, "THAT'S OUR DURRRMIO!"  BV) 

My other immediate interest is capt.h (as a likely scum).  I am going to reread him though to flesh out a better case.

[Shadoweh]

THAT'S OUR DURRMIO!  :V
Seriously, you can come up with a better reason to call Dormio scum Dormio then his reaction to the miller claim Dan, that's so yesterday! You should be looking for his actual ~*OPINIONS!*~ Same goes for LLD. Forget the claim just long enough to see what's not being said, yeah? Oh that miller thing sounds, oh this sounds familiar, like you're being Lazy!

You do realize Omba cut me with that post right? It's insulting you think I'd need to steal an opinion I already had from another player. I don't recall deciding that was the only reason you looked bad to me. It certainly didn't make me think you looked any better, scumbucko! Your oh my god Shadoweh's reason for voting me is so fake she sucks vote makes me feel soooo comfy! You got any scumspects that aren't capt. 'Gettin bandwagoned by 4 people already' h? No your Dormio is maybe scum opinion doesn't count.

[Affinity]

Much of today seems to be opportunistically voting someone for opportunistically voting someone (e.g LLD on Dormio, Serp on capt.h on Omha, etc.).  Even my vote on Omha was opportunistic when Omha opportunistically voted Dormio for complaining about his supposed restraining order.  Jokes aside, this is a somewhat infinite chain I cannot garner information from alone.

##Unvote
##Vote: Schezo

One question, why did you vote capt.h over Dormio?  You gave some original analysis on the LLD/Dormio situation, but you threw it out just for rehashed points on capt.h.  You also use a lot of buzzwords like 'trapping' (for Lamda), 'backtracking' (for capt.h) and 'appeal to emotion' (Dormio) that might imply some semblance of scumminess but you did not exactly form a comparison with them to arrive at your conclusion of capt. h being first scum    Why is that so?.  Furthermore, I feel that much of the things you say against Dormio seem quite arbitrary, like quoting a random phrase from Dormio and chiding him for Appeal to Emotion as an invalid point, only for it to lead into a 'I'm sure something scummy is going on between you two!", which does not link. 

In short, why is capt.h 's backtracking and misrepping worse than Dormio's appeal to emotion and borrowing of points from others?

In the meantime, I don't appreciate people like Zakeri and PX going onto Dan just for suggesting a quick lynch while offering only comments on Lamda's claim. and ignoring others like capt.h, especially when the case on Dan is so trivial it could be redacted once Dan voted someone, which he obviously would (where Dan voted Shadoweh).  The capt. h wagon also seems valid but it's a tad too opportunistic for me with Schezo and K4U jumping on it (though I like Dormio's post the best out of all of them).  These are my opinions for the other stuff.

Also, Lady Lamda, since capt. h agreed with Dormio, why did you only go after Dormio as being opportunistic scum while missing capt. h completely?

[ActionDan]

Mom! she's picking on me again!   :ohdear:

About Dormio: perhaps you missed the part where I said it was a turkey shoot for scum?  That means I believe the fight to be town/town, but find dormio scummier than LLD.  So, shadoweh, you are saying my case and vote on you is not enough for you to be considered a scumspect? Perhaps you meant "other scumpects."  Also I find this a tad hypocritical when you yourself aren't sharing who your "scumpects" are.  I know you think I'm scum, but who else?  All you have said is that LLD is not obvtown because you are capable of seeing her actions as Scum!LLD, but also this:

I can think of much better reasons to vote Dormio then reacting to game mechanics. I also think Lambda sounds pretty town (WHICH MEANS SHE IS ACTUALLY OBVSCUM OMG) so I'm not interested in pushing mislynches.

   
In fact, you are only interested in not pushing Dormio's mislynch, citing town reasons for Dormio's reactions everychance you get (including my own post).  So, in your opinion, what ARE the better reasons to vote Dormio?  Also what do you think of Kitten?  You thought it scummy of me to think bad of her early on, but never actually gave an opinion of her in the process. 

I think it's time for you to stop questioning everybody and state your own opinions. 

Case stills stands. 

I don't recall deciding that was the only reason you looked bad to me. It certainly didn't make me think you looked any better, scumbucko!

If you didn't "steal" Omba's idea you sure as hell didn't mention it earlier as a reason of voting for me. 

My advice? Don't get insulted.  You have been calling me lazy all game yet I've taken hours to post and hours more to reread everypost before posting!
No matter how many apples you shove in my mouth, I'll still keep coming for you.  (ShadowScum  :3)

[Edible]

There's something bothering me about Zak and Shadoweh, but I can't figure out what it is right now.  I'll see if I can figure it out later, going through their posts several times hasn't helped me yet.

I dunno about Zak, but is it because Shadoweh has not had a single scumhunting post thus far?  I know it's early-ish, but every one of her posts has been responses to other players or setup speculation (the latter of which is understandable).  It's what's bothering me about her, at least.  That and her tone seems a bit more inflammatory than usual, but lolmeta.  In short, she's active-lurky.

I dislike the case on capt.h.  Feels like a psuedo-organized effort to get rid of a poor player and not a poor scum player.  That sort of policy lynch logic is unnecessary in a game where we have no hard deadline.

In fact, you are only interested in not pushing Dormio's mislynch,

... Dormio's a mislynch, huh?

##vote ActionDan

Care to explain why?

[Edible]

Oh, right.

@Dormio: If you require clarification on why I was voting Lambda, ask.  My case on her hasn't gone away, and I'm not really sure why you think it had.

[Schezo]

Affinity:
re: buzzwords, because LLD openly admits that she did in fact set up bait for someone jump on and then later make a case on them for it, with a backup if needed.  Doesn't make her go in a good light and I should say that this is another reason I think there is something scum motivated going on between those two, I don't see townie slapfight when I look at it.  capt h. backtracking because he had reason to throw in active lurking when he first made his case about Omba since Omba has stayed pretty much the same as when his case was made.  This is a scummy, since now it's just an addendum after he already made his case and Omba has done nothing new to make that opinion come out of midair and he should have said it with his weak case when he made it.  I thought I also provided original reasoning on capt h but I guess not when mine can be reduced to just rehashing an old case?  His case seemed a lot more solid of a read to me than Dormio's tunnely stuff but do not mistake that Dormio is currently my second to vote at this point.  That also stems from at that point neither LLD or Dormio had yet to talk about other people so I couldn't be too sure about which on seemed worse, though you can see my opinions on what I think of those two I was torn about which of the two ( h or dormio) I wanted to vote.


Shadoweh: You're lucky you even got a named quote at all >:|
Omba seemed to have a pretty solid opinion about Dan here and here so capt h's last 2 points are invalid.  He did have nulltells but he also had stuff like:

Well. Currently it's saying you're more concerned with speculating about the setup than hunting scum; while there's insufficient information for the speculation to bear any useful fruits.

That seems rather solid to me.

[Omba]

Edible: Please explain your case on Lambda in further detail. I'd kind of like to compare it to your interesting case on Dan. And is that your whole case on him, or is there more to it?

[Edible]

Edible: Please explain your case on Lambda in further detail. I'd kind of like to compare it to your interesting case on Dan. And is that your whole case on him, or is there more to it?

Case on Lambda:

1) Gotcha games in ED1

2) Perception of scum intent behind gotcha games

It's enough for me to dislike things she does.  I will be Keeping An Eye On Her to see if her stated change in game approachment is for the better.

As for Dan, well.  What do you call it when a player casually refers to another player as a mislynch?  I'll give you a hint - it starts with S and ends with something on your face.

[Omba]

Dormio: Now you've switched from voting LLD to... voting capt. h, who's wagon is currently all the rage. This could be read as jumping off of her once it has become obvious she won't get lynched for her claim.

Edible: Uh. Ok. So you're voting Dan because he... chose to word that this way? You could, like, you know, just read that part as "you're actually only interested in defending Dormio / not getting Dormio lynched". Especially considering Shadoweh spoke of mislynches in the part that Dan quoted and answered to.
And previously you voted Lambda for... using traps. Care to explain what is so scummy about that that you'd vote her for it? Considering town can also do this; and that it's an effective way to quickly end RVS, as we've seen.
Side note: I think Lambda was saying she won't word her posts as aggressive anymore. Not that she'd change the way she plays.

[Omba]

The capt. h wagon also seems valid but it's a tad too opportunistic for me with Schezo and K4U jumping on it (though I like Dormio's post the best out of all of them).

Is the "like best" only referring to the part concerning capt. h?
If so, what about Dormio's case on capt. h looks better to you than K4U's? It looks to me like everything Dormio said about capt. h was already said by K4U before him. On the other hand, K4U actually added new stuff to the case Serp had made.

[Kitten4u]

Now that I'm feeling somewhat coherent I feel the need to restate what's bothering me about capth again.

I've already answered that:

My bad, I missed that.  I still find it incredibly unsatisfying though.

Like, okay, you think that Dan vs Kitten4u is not town vs town.  What is making you think this?  More importantly, why do I come out looking better?  The fact that I am totally not acting like Kitten4u is null.  I promised Pesco that I would end RVS and not lurk through D1 so I could try to improve my game.  I also stated this multiple times in the IRC channel.  Hourai even made a comment about spamming the thread up with me in the sign up thread because he wanted to lurk less too.  Meaning, I would have ended RVS and lurked less regardless of my alignment.  Even more than that, I don't see how anyone (especially capth) would try to use meta on someone acting very much not like themself, especially when that person said themself that they were playing differently.  It's not even a matter of it being incredibly silly and worthless to try to meta someone in that situation, it just flat out makes no sense at all.

But okay, let's just say he gut cleared Kitten4u and still thought Kitten4u vs Dan was not town vs town.  Due to the nature of that read that would mean Dan is definitely scum.  This is why I find his reason for voting for Omba is so unsatisfying.  At the time of his vote, Omba was voting for Dan.  Despite what he claims, Omba's reason for voting Dan was certainly clear.  Whether or not he thought it was a good reason is a different story entirely, but considering he never followed up on that, I'm going to assume that he thought it was clear too (and if you didn't capth, then why DIDN'T you follow up on it?).  In other words, he's voting for someone that made a reasonable vote on someone he thinks is scum.  This is less of a big deal since Omba unvoted Dan, but dear god that initial vote is awful.

But Kitten4u, he's probably just more sure about Omba than Dan!  Okay, sure.  Why hasn't he spent any time at all questioning Dan or I?  He seems to think one of us is scum, why isn't he putting more effort into figuring out which of us it is?  Or if he's really sure it's Dan why isn't he spending any time at all questioning Dan and/or perhaps trying to figure out whether or not Omba's vote on Dan feels like a bus attempt?

I do not see town thought in any of this, even without my current read on Dan.  I'll let you all in on a secret.  I think Dan is town.  Ergo, trying to push that one of us is certainly scum feels wrong.
Couple all that with what I feel is unreasonable expectations and that he didn't provide any of his own opinions on the things he asked until prodded and I really do not like the way capth looks.

Between her miller claim and the rage posts, LLD is hard for me to read. I'd like to hear both their reads on the other players first.

In other words, your read on LLD is null? :|

I dunno, maybe I'm just being way too easy on Omba, but I don't think having one or two solid opinions in the first 24 hours of the game (as of when you voted him in other words) is unreasonable.  Naturally, I wouldn't mind hearing more in general.  Omba, do you think Lambda is town?  Do you think Dan is town now?  Is there anyone else you're suspicious of?  Note, that I am not asking whether their actions are scummy, I am asking whether or not you think they are scum or town.  Also, could you rehash your case on Dormio real quick?

More on other people will come soon.  I think I need to reread the game again.  I have no idea how you guys are able to spam up the thread without killing yourselves.  I've already read the game 13 times and keeping up this pace is hard.  :colonveeplusalpha:

[Edible]

You could, like, you know, just read that part as "you're actually only interested in defending Dormio / not getting Dormio lynched".  Especially considering Shadoweh spoke of mislynches in the part that Dan quoted and answered to.

Shadoweh's use of the word came after stating she didn't pursue Lambda because she thought she would be a mislynch.  Dan's use of it looked to me like he was referring directly to Dormio as a mislynch, which implies he has knowledge the rest of us don't.  In short, he was careless.

And now he has multiple outs to that which you handed to him.  Thanks! :|  Next time, don't randomly jump in to defend people.

And previously you voted Lambda for... using traps. Care to explain what is so scummy about that that you'd vote her for it? Considering town can also do this; and that it's an effective way to quickly end RVS, as we've seen.

Edible's opinion on gotcha games!

Gotcha games are as bad in mafia as they are in real life.  You set up an easily trippable "switch" and then wait for someone to stumble into it.  They're riddled with false positives based off a single broad if-then premise and they're tremendous logical fallacies that tend to put words into someone's mouth.  No one should use them ever.

They're anti-town at best and scummy at worst.  It's a gambit I dislike for previously stated reasons, and using it in early day 1 in your first post strikes me as scummy.

[Kitten4u]

Next time, don't randomly jump in to defend people.

This.  I think it needs to be stated again since I already told Dan not to do this on page 2.

[Omba]

Edible: So... you're voting Dan for what you perceive as a slip-up. Yet part of your attack on Lambda is her using the same reason to vote Dormio. Only Dormio spent multiple whole posts on slipping up. And not only in his choice of words. Also, I regret to inform you that yes, town can use traps, whether you personally think they're useful or not. And they definitely do not only rely on binary if-then.
I would not have jumped in if it didn't look so obvious to me. And I did not do it to defend him, but rather because I think you're scum for attacking him with godawful reasoning. I could see your vote on LLD as town-motivated, considering there's differing opinions on the methods she used. I can not see your Dan vote as such. And the combination of both is just what is this I don't even. Added bonus: Hey, let's totally jump that wagon. Yay!
Actually.

##Unvote
##Vote: Edible

K4U:
Dan looks townie to me. He reads just like he did in his first game, albeit with less derp.
Lambda looks rather townie to me. I'll have to read up on her meta via the links she posted earlier, but I'm pretty sure it won't change my read of her.
Edible is obviously looking pretty damn scummy right now.
capt. h looked slightly scummy before your last post and somewhat more scummy after you posted your full case on him. Before your post, I was leaning towards thinking of him as derp rather than outright scummy. Now he looks more like scum to me.

Case on Dormio: Votes Lamdba for her claim. This is not really scummy yet, it could just be his opinion which I happened to disagree with. Then proceeds to tunnel her. This is scummy, especially considering he had lots of time to rethink his opinion of her. Then jumps off her wagon once it has become clear others do not share his opinion (and hence he's not getting his lynch).