Iku Quest Dos - A Z-Machine Adventure

[Hello Purvis]

>You are Iku Nagae, Gensokyo's premier messenger and dancer, and the sky has fallen!
>You do not know how, or why, but Bhava-Arga has fallen from the sky and now hovers scant yards over the surface of Gensokyo. This has caused numerous problems. On top of this, Tenshi has run off after stealing the Sword of Hisou. This has made her a primary suspect in the eyes of many. Yourself included.
>You are an oarfish youkai in service to the Dragon Palace. As a resident of Bhava-Agra, you bear a status similar to that of a Celestial, and are considered a minor functionary in the Celestial Bureaucracy that makes certain the known universe runs as it should, with all the rights privileges, and duties that come with this position. You are in the service of The Dragon, who reigns quietly as the highest god of this realm, and is among the highest beings in the universe. It regards you well, and you think of it as a guardian.
>While your duties and position suggest your place is in Bhava-Agra, you have a tendency to roam to other places. You somewhat blame this on Tenshi Hinanai, whom you have unfortunately been charged with keeping out of significant trouble, and her tendency to visit Gensokyo whenever possible. You are well-know for your love of dance, and excellence in performing it; oftentimes you've been asked to star in performances given at the Dragon Palace. Others have styled you the Dance Empress, particularly those who would try to claim that title for themselves. You are, as far as you know, well regarded by everyone you know and are welcome practically anywhere in Gensokyo, save perhaps for Higan. The only real black spot in your days is periodically having to deal with Tenshi's chicanery.
>You have been tasked by The Dragon in dealing with this incident. You have taken some stock of the damage surrounding the fall. You have found that Bhava-Agra's food supply has been badly affected by these events. You have been tasked with delivering messages for Patchouli.
>You are currently facing off with Sanae, who seems to want to Incident Solve you right in the face.

>"And what would the intended consequences be? I'm not entirely sure why someone would want this to happen in the first place - or how it would happen accidentally, from what I did see. Still..."
>Though Remilia seems to be enjoying it, and with what Tenshi said...
>"I don't suppose there's anything I could do to prove my intentions to you without having to fight?"

>Certainly some people have benefited, directly or indirectly.
>"I don't know, is there?" she asks.

>"It's unfortunate, but I have no proof other than my word on this."

>Be ready to dodge anything Sanae might decide to throw at us. Danmaku is now an inevitability at this point.
>"I do have one thing I know for certain."
"Oh? And what is that?"
>"You have nothing to do with this Incident."

>"Well it's not like you're going to just say 'I did it' if you really are behind it," Sanae says.
>She hasn't fired yet, but you do not like way she is eying you.
>"Wrf is this shit mastake?"

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "I don't suppose pointing out all the things that have gone wrong for us while being unable to produce anything that has gone right for us will be enough?"
> "There's not really a whole lot else I can do, as why we fell is as much a mystery to me as anyone else."

[E-Nazrin]

>"Perhaps there's a way I could help figure out what's going on, as that would be good for both of us?"

[WHMZakeri]

Okay guys, here's the deal.

We run - She attacks
We attack - obv. she attacks
We continue talking about nothing - She gets bored and attacks
We prove to her with evidence that we're not that cause of the incident - She doesn't attack
We go to find said evidence - She presumes option one, she attacks.

I'm not saying it's impossible to talk Sanae out of a danmaku fight. I'm just saying it's very, very, very, very unlikely we will. I also believe that we should try to win the fight, because if we lose, the only thing we'll get is a free pass the next time Sanae confronts us. If we win however, we can interogate her for anything she knows.

Now on why we should interogate her - She has been going around beating people up for a while now. That means she's asked a lot of people what they know about what happened. All of that information she collected can be passed onto us if we win. We get jack however if we lose. The worse thing we can get from winning is exactly the same as what we get from losing (No new information, and Sanae doesn't bother us again).

now, having presented my argument, I expect you all to come up with a counter argument for why we should forfeit a danmaku game, and how we can try to talk Sanae out of it in the first place.

[Hello Purvis]

> "I don't suppose pointing out all the things that have gone wrong for us while being unable to produce anything that has gone right for us will be enough?"
> "There's not really a whole lot else I can do, as why we fell is as much a mystery to me as anyone else."

>"Who's us?" Sanae asks. "This is a conspiracy, isn't it!"

>"Perhaps there's a way I could help figure out what's going on, as that would be good for both of us?"

>"I don't know, is there?" asks Sanae. "You sure do like trying to get me to come up with reasons why you're not involved, don't you?"

>_

[Kilgamayan]

We continue talking about nothing - She gets bored and attacks

Disagree.

how we can try to talk Sanae out of it in the first place.

'Swhat we're doing right now. :V

> "'Us' would be the citizens of Bhava-Agra, many of which I have already made mention."

[Hello Purvis]

> "'Us' would be the citizens of Bhava-Agra, many of which I have already made mention."

>"Okay, so if you didn't do it, and things got so bad for your people, what are you doing our in the middle of nowhere meeting with Tenshi?" Sanae asks. "That's just too suspicious!"

>_

[E-Nazrin]

Why to forfeit? To convince her that we're not involved, rather than a stoic or uninformed minion of the incident's instigator, which would get us nothing and may make her tempted to rough us up again if she encounters us in a suspicious location again. (I don't think she'd omit a re-beating if necessary.)

Why try to talk first? Because she might be willing to share some of that information without having to come to blows before she decides whether to attack or not, making that much of the win or loss irrelevant before having to fight or do anything else, rather than as a victory reward.

How to talk her out of it? Provide evidence she can accept, give her something important to show our good faith (i.e. bribe), or offer her something that would help her and go contrary to our interests if we WERE involved in the incident, to show that we aren't. These categories can overlap.

Suggest:
"Honestly, I'm not certain what would convince you. I have some idea where Tenshi is, and I wish to speak with her about this as there have been some... compromising coincidences between her actions and the timing of the Heavens falling. I'm not certain I would be a significant threat if I handed over my spellcards without a fight - I am more interested in figuring out what's going on than getting into fights, and doing so would be a sign of good faith, right? Or perhaps I can help you with some other part of how you're investigating this, though I'm not entirely certain of the details?"

FAKE EDIT AFTER PURVISPOST:
>"Not meeting with - finding. I had to ask Patchouli to help track her down."

Suggest:
"I doubt that Tenshi could do this herself, even with the Sword of Hisou, but the circumstances surrounding when Bhava-Agra suggest that she needs to be spoken with. I would prefer to do so personally to give some semblance of benefit of the doubt, for now, but if you would like to be there as well or go instead, I'm listening."

[Hello Purvis]

>"Not meeting with - finding. I had to ask Patchouli to help track her down."

>"It's still suspicious!" Sanae says.

>_

[WHMZakeri]

Since we're suggesting:
"Alright then, Miss Shrine Maiden. So you suspect me, do you? Then very well. Tell me why I did this. Tell me what reason I would have, endangering our lands, endangering our people, endangering the people of Gensokyo, whom none of us have any reason to attack in the first place, for bringing the islands down to where they are now? Can you think of any sort of ends to those means, anything at all for why I or my people would put so many lives in danger for."

If we're going to talk her out of this, we can't just tell her we're not involved. We have to make her understand we can't be. This is the best way I can think of to get her to think about how wrong she is. She already comes pre-defensive, so pleading her to forgive our position with wordy explanations won't help us any more than any of my posts so far have help against you two.

[E-Nazrin]

Since we're suggesting:
"Alright then, Miss Shrine Maiden. So you suspect me, do you? Then very well. Tell me why I did this. Tell me what reason I would have, endangering our lands, endangering our people, endangering the people of Gensokyo, whom none of us have any reason to attack in the first place, for bringing the islands down to where they are now? Can you think of any sort of ends to those means, anything at all for why I or my people would put so many lives in danger for."

I think she already expressed that she doesn't know or care why we might have done it, just that something's up and we're acting suspicious and that's reason enough to have us unconscious rather than scheming. The usual Incident Solver MO, as Reimu already displayed.

If we're going to talk her out of this, we can't just tell her we're not involved. We have to make her understand we can't be. This is the best way I can think of to get her to think about how wrong she is. She already comes pre-defensive, so pleading her to forgive our position with wordy explanations won't help us any more than any of my posts so far have help against you two.

Which is why I'm saying to offer to do something 'for' her to put weight behind our claims. What would be enough? I don't know.

The goal isn't to show her that she's wrong by repeating ourselves with absolute conviction, it's to get us both on the same side about how to go about doing this rather than fighting to accomplish nothing.

Suggest:
"True. But it does mean that Patchouli can vouch for having to burn Tenshi's dress to find out where she is."

[DracoOmega]

How about this?

"I agree that Tenshi's disappearance is suspicious. She fled from me as the islands started to fall and she has stolen the Sword of Hisou from its rightful home. I'd like to believe she didn't cause this, but it's important that she be found and spoken with. The Dragon itself has charged me with finding her as my highest priority."
"Consider what would be gained by you attacking me, now. If you incapacitate me and I am innocent, then Tenshi escapes, and we both lose a valuable source of information about what really happened. If you incapacitate me and I am guilty, then nothing changes. The islands remain where they are and Tenshi still escapes."
"Celestials value honesty enormously. I swear that I am not lying to you, and ask that you extend me a little faith, at least for the moment. I do not know how or why the islands fell, or how to reverse it. But I wish no harm to Gensokyo. The last time there was an incident involving the heavens, I took it upon myself to travel around Gensokyo warning people of its coming."
"If you truly wish to resolve this incident, please accompany me. I swear that my intentions are just."

[WHMZakeri]

Which is why I'm saying to offer to do something 'for' her to put weight behind our claims. What would be enough? I don't know.

The goal isn't to show her that she's wrong by repeating ourselves with absolute conviction, it's to get us both on the same side

So basically, our goal is to swindle her into not attacking us. That's not suspicious at all, and will never go wrong.

rather than fighting to accomplish nothing.

I've already detailed why and how fighting accomplishes things.

Suggest:
"True. But it does mean that Patchouli can vouch for having to burn Tenshi's dress to find out where she is."

This is just going to end with us sending Sanae off to Patchouli with the same results as when we sent off Reimu. We won't learn anything, and Sanae will probably find a reason to bug us again when we run into her later. I'm certain Patchouli wouldn't want to be fighting our battles for us, either.

Edit: I can't find a reason why Drake's suggestion wouldn't work or be desirable. I'm okay if we go with that. It's the only dialog suggested so far that actually puts Sanae into a bit of a spot.

[E-Nazrin]

So basically, our goal is to swindle her into not attacking us. That's not suspicious at all, and will never go wrong.

It's suspicious, but it'll go even more right than beating her up if we can pull it off. As for swindling? To an extent, semantics. It's a bit of a sneaky method, but it does get us both what we want, and does more good than one of us passing out and the other getting worn out by the fight.

I've already detailed why and how fighting accomplishes things.

But does it accomplish as much as teaming up?

This is just going to end with us sending Sanae off to Patchouli with the same results as when we sent off Reimu. We won't learn anything, and Sanae will probably find a reason to bug us again when we run into her later. I'm certain Patchouli wouldn't want to be fighting our battles for us, either.

And I was fine with that solution and sort of regret not letting Reimu speak with us afterwards for transparency and to cash in on getting information from that request if she was satisfied.

Edit: I can't find a reason why Drake's suggestion wouldn't work or be desirable. I'm okay if we go with that. It's the only dialog suggested so far that actually puts Sanae into a bit of a spot.

Well, apart from assuming that Tenshi escapes in either case... :V

[DracoOmega]

So basically, our goal is to swindle her into not attacking us. That's not suspicious at all, and will never go wrong.

It's suspicious, but it'll go even more right than beating her up if we can pull it off. As for swindling? To an extent, semantics. It's a bit of a sneaky method, but it does get us both what we want, and does more good than one of us passing out and the other getting worn out by the fight.

Honestly, I don't see it as swindling at all. In fact, it's almost directly honest, if Sanae will believe it. She wants to solve the incident. We want to solve the incident. She wants no one here to come to harm. We want no one here to come to harm. In fact, we're already on the same side; Sanae just isn't convinced that we are.

In any event, it doesn't seem there are serious objections to what I said earlier, so:

>"I agree that Tenshi's disappearance is suspicious. She fled from me as the islands started to fall and she has stolen the Sword of Hisou from its rightful home. I'd like to believe she didn't cause this, but it's important that she be found and spoken with. The Dragon itself has charged me with finding her as my highest priority."
>"Consider what would be gained by you attacking me, now. If you incapacitate me and I am innocent, then Tenshi escapes, and we both lose a valuable source of information about what really happened. If you incapacitate me and I am guilty, then nothing changes. The islands remain where they are and Tenshi still escapes."
>"Celestials value honesty enormously. I swear that I am not lying to you, and ask that you extend me a little faith, at least for the moment. I do not know how or why the islands fell, or how to reverse it. But I wish no harm to Gensokyo. The last time there was an incident involving the heavens, I took it upon myself to travel around Gensokyo warning people of its coming."
>"If you truly wish to resolve this incident, please accompany me. I swear that my intentions are just."

[E-Nazrin]

In any event, it doesn't seem there are serious objections to what I said earlier, so:

Well, apart from assuming that Tenshi escapes in either case... :V

She can demand to beat the information out of us or beat us as punishment for not talking. She can find Tenshi under her own power before she escapes. She can get angry at the insinuation that she wouldn't be able to find Tenshi without our help. She can insist that we fix things if we are guilty and she wins. She takes a risk in letting us get away if we're guilty and she doesn't attack.

There are many possible objections, but not all are immediately intuitive. You have to think from her perspective and account for whatever you can.

[DracoOmega]

I meant in the sense that no player here seemed to object to it being said. Not in terms of what Sanae may object to, of which I realize there are multiple things.

[E-Nazrin]

More bluntly, I was too subtle in expressing my own uncertainty about it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Care to account for some of those?

[DracoOmega]

She can demand to beat the information out of us or beat us as punishment for not talking.

She can do that no matter what we say, or don't say. We don't really have any more information to give her that we're holding back. Sure, she can choose not to believe that, but I'm not sure what we can do about this particular issue, in general. We have nothing to tell her. How do you prove you have no information?

She can find Tenshi under her own power before she escapes.

The issue with this, I believe, if that if she tries to subdue us first, no matter the outcome, Sanae will be occupied long enough for Tenshi to be elsewhere. Sure, Tenshi might be kind enough to stay still, but she might not, and she'll have plenty of time to disappear again.

This, of course, is assuming Sanae will think this through, which is definitely an open question. She might assume she has more than enough time for both, or that Tenshi being down there is a lie in the first place.

She can get angry at the insinuation that she wouldn't be able to find Tenshi without our help.

She could. Although the implication, as far as I saw it, was 'neither of us has time to waste here, or we risk giving Tenshi time to escape'. Not that Sanae is somehow incompetent.

She takes a risk in letting us get away if we're guilty and she doesn't attack.

This is true, I realize. I'm not sure what to say about this in either case. Maybe offer to disarm ourselves somewhat by temporarily giving her our spellcards? Actually, that might be a nice show of good faith in general, now that I think of it... Although it carries risks of its own.

The problem with most of these objections is that I don't see a way to say something that avoids most of them. We'd need real proof of us not having nefarious intentions, and it's very hard to offer hard proof of intentions. Knowing the true culprit would be great, but we don't. We can point out how we've been harmed by the incident, and all the reasons why we wouldn't have done it, but Sanae's free to disbelieve all of them, as she's mostly been doing so far.

[Hello Purvis]

>"I agree that Tenshi's disappearance is suspicious. She fled from me as the islands started to fall and she has stolen the Sword of Hisou from its rightful home. I'd like to believe she didn't cause this, but it's important that she be found and spoken with. The Dragon itself has charged me with finding her as my highest priority."
>"Consider what would be gained by you attacking me, now. If you incapacitate me and I am innocent, then Tenshi escapes, and we both lose a valuable source of information about what really happened. If you incapacitate me and I am guilty, then nothing changes. The islands remain where they are and Tenshi still escapes."
>"Celestials value honesty enormously. I swear that I am not lying to you, and ask that you extend me a little faith, at least for the moment. I do not know how or why the islands fell, or how to reverse it. But I wish no harm to Gensokyo. The last time there was an incident involving the heavens, I took it upon myself to travel around Gensokyo warning people of its coming."
>"If you truly wish to resolve this incident, please accompany me. I swear that my intentions are just."

>"Actually, if I take you out and you're behind it, it means things don't get worse," says Sanae. "Might even fix things altogether."

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"And if you're wrong? You'll not only have harmed an innocent who is already trying earnestly to fix things, but possibly made the situation even worse."
>"Even in times of crisis, it's important not to make hasty judgements. If you follow me, you'll remain in a perfect position to intervene, should you become convinced I am behind this. But attacking someone without any proof, when they have sworn their innocence... Is that something you truly wish to do?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"And if you're wrong? You'll not only have harmed an innocent who is already trying earnestly to fix things, but possibly made the situation even worse."
>"Even in times of crisis, it's important not to make hasty judgements. If you follow me, you'll remain in a perfect position to intervene, should you become convinced I am behind this. But attacking someone without any proof, when they have sworn their innocence... Is that something you truly wish to do?"

>"I'm not seeing how taking you out is going to make things worse," says Sanae. "But I can definitely see it has a good chance of making them better, or at least keep them from getting worse. And where will you be taking me, exactly?"

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"Tenshi seems to be Underground. Patchouli used a spell to point me in the right direction, but the longer I wait, the more likely Tenshi will have moved on. This is the only information I have to go by. I don't know what she's doing there, but I think it's important to find out."

[Hello Purvis]

>"Tenshi seems to be Underground. Patchouli used a spell to point me in the right direction, but the longer I wait, the more likely Tenshi will have moved on. This is the only information I have to go by. I don't know what she's doing there, but I think it's important to find out."

>"So...you want me, a human, to follow you underground where all the oni are?" says Sanae, frowning. "Or, follow you underground to meet someone that might well be a part of this too and would definitely be on your side if she was?"

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"I assure you, if Tenshi is responsible for this, I will almost certainly be more upset with her than you are. Many, many celestials are injured right now, and whoever caused this has a great deal to answer for. Our goals are roughly the same, I believe."
>"I don't think the oni will be a threat to you, given who you are, and I don't even know if Tenshi's that deep inside."
>"But I can understand your reluctance. I don't know what else to say. It's very important that I find her as soon as possible."
>"If you still consider me a threat to you... I am willing to surrender my spellcards temporarily, as a gesture of good faith."

[Kilgamayan]

>"If you still consider me a threat to you... I am willing to surrender my spellcards temporarily, as a gesture of good faith."

This makes me skiddish. I'm wondering if we can't get an audience with Kanasuwa instead, as they're far more likely to believe us and they can just tell Sanae to stop being stupid.

[DracoOmega]

It makes me skittish, too, to be honest. But I'd like to believe Sanae wouldn't be nearly brazen enough to let us disarm ourselves and then beat us up afterwards, anyway.
The audience with the goddesses is an interesting idea, and they may very well be more reasonable. At least Kanako almost certainly would be. But the time it takes to get to the mountain, speak with them, and return, is more than enough time to lose any benefit we've gotten so far from tracking Tenshi.

[Hello Purvis]

>"I assure you, if Tenshi is responsible for this, I will almost certainly be more upset with her than you are. Many, many celestials are injured right now, and whoever caused this has a great deal to answer for. Our goals are roughly the same, I believe."
>"I don't think the oni will be a threat to you, given who you are, and I don't even know if Tenshi's that deep inside."
>"But I can understand your reluctance. I don't know what else to say. It's very important that I find her as soon as possible."
>"If you still consider me a threat to you... I am willing to surrender my spellcards temporarily, as a gesture of good faith."

>Sanae's obvious suspicion doesn't really change, until you say the last past. "Wait...what?"
>It takes her a moment to consider this. "Okay, but you realize I can't just give them back until I'm completely sure it's not you, right? Otherwise you could just go cause more trouble after I leave, right?"

>_

[Kilgamayan]

Go find Tenshi -> go back up the mountain to talk to Kanasuwa, then? I'd like to get those cards back ASAP, and it would be nice to have some surface-dwellers on our side.

EDIT: Not that it really matters from my perspective, as I'm off to bed.

[DracoOmega]

I'm personally in favor of doing this.
If we find who the culprit is (assuming it's not Tenshi), and we're not fully armed at the time, we have more than enough powerful people who'll want to beat them in our stead.
And if Tenshi's spoiling for a fight, no matter what, well... the statement above still stands, I think.
Plus, after our immediate business in the Underground, we can go speak with the goddesses directly, which will probably allow us to get our cards back if Sanae's still being stubborn.

Edit: Yeah, I guess we're in agreement, then?