Author Topic: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN  (Read 39535 times)

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #480 on: September 24, 2010, 10:17:50 AM »
It wasn't at you, it was at Sakana.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ N4
« Reply #481 on: September 24, 2010, 01:54:41 PM »
@Zak: Yeah, no. Affinity's case was terrible.

But, yeah, I figured shooting Zak made me obv vig.

@Affinity: Lemme put it this way. When I got hammered and told bofh to slap you in IRC, he basically said: Four words Hasty Generalization (Logical) Fallacy.

At any rate, I had a thoughts QT. So, here you go.

As for townies, Bard was impressive. He also caught the scum, IIRC, and ALSO realized Serela was town. Seriously, how the hell did you pick that out? Most of this post is speaking on Affinity so yeah. Serela, that was dumb. I understand the point of the gambit, but it was dumb. Especially in a game with different flavor you don't know, since it makes your claim suspect. Seriously, SCUM fakeclaim when threatened to out power roles. You do realize that with ONE MORE DAY town (possibly) could have won, right? But you ate that day. Choja, you tried. That's really all one can ask. I don't remember Polaris very well. Probably because he lurked to modkill. Seriously, don't. I do remember Prody, there's a reason you don't quote ANYTHING from your role PM. Kilga was good as usual, though his side trip on Nobu was kinda weird. Nobu also did their best but I think the vacation disrupted you a little much.

@Affinity: I keep telling you IT WASN'T LUCK

Why the hell is it that if Bard or Kilga had told all of you that Kefit, Zakeri, and Chaore were the scum, you'd hail how GREAT SCUMHUNTERS they are, but when I do it it's "luck"

When I've now eventually caught all the scum two games in a row? You know, it's beginning to piss me off. You want proof it wasn't luck? Despite the fact you, Affinity, made several terrible cases, I still knew you were town, contrasted with Kefit. Admittedly, I failed on Chaore. I could have pinned him pretty easily with a reread probably. I told you guys since like, D2, IIRC? he was clicking for me, but I didn't follow it up. Mea culpa. As for Zakeri, that WASN'T purely gut. I explained as best I could. If that wasn't good enough for you then I think you're the one who needs to improve.

@Affinity: IIRC I didn't catch Kefit til D3.



Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #482 on: September 24, 2010, 03:01:17 PM »
Quote
Why the hell is it that if Bard or Kilga had told all of you that Kefit, Zakeri, and Chaore were the scum, you'd hail how GREAT SCUMHUNTERS they are, but when I do it it's "luck"

Because when you say it, you say it in a way that makes people was to instinctively disagree with you. You seriously need to learn public relations. If you go back and read up your case on me, you make it sound like you're voting me for no reason other than pure OMGUS. (Calling me scum just because I said I wanted to make a case on you). and by the time you provided your real reasoning for the case, it sounds like you're backtracking. You might have been the day 2 lynch if you didn't have that vig shot.

And no, I don't mean disrespect when I say this. I know you're a good player, and a good scumhunter. I even said as much in the Graveyard topic. All you need is to figure out how to talk to the rest of town.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #483 on: September 24, 2010, 03:13:29 PM »
Eh, I would have gotten out of the lynch, I tend to be good at THAT, at least. I do agree I need to be better at persuasiveness, but still, people should be able to figure things out on their own and see the things I see. I also usually think I HAVE explained it. Still, I would LIKE to think the evidence implies that I certainly wasn't "lucky" this game, as some people seem to imply.


Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #484 on: September 24, 2010, 03:29:51 PM »
Let's.... trade?  That one was enough to make me distrust you for the rest of the game.

After all, at the very least, most of your cases were based on you rebuking other people's cases against you in the most unreadable and least convincing of ways,  I suppose.  And there's my thinking that if scum had never attacked you, you would have never gotten them with as much certainty (e.g even you said that there wasn't much in Kefit's ISO to go for.  I also doubt that you would have vigged Zakeri D1 if he hadn't 'attacked you').  I could be wrong, but while you might have a great gut, I don't believe that you have great scumhunting that can convince people to agree with you.  It's just so antagonistic and plain hard to reply to without grimacing.  Even Kilga had issues with your Zakeri vote (not just me), and I hardly think that he needs that much improving either.  And uh, you said that Bardiche looked worse than Chaore and yet you claim credit for catching him as scum which is quite... hmm.

As for comments on my play, I think my Kefit case was more convincing and complete than yours overall; the Serela and huhwhat case just characteristic of town overall.  The case on you I believe had some basis, but it just ended up coinciding with your meta, but alright, it's terrible.  You should have raised why you thought those cases (other than that on you) terrible in-game anyways.  And  for every Affinity you catch being town there's always a Nat Tea you thought was scum but yet town.  No need to accentuate your skill over something like this.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #485 on: September 24, 2010, 03:41:05 PM »
Heh, this is a great scum QT. Yeah, I always shoot N1 on the rare occasions I'm vig.

Also, Kefit...first you say I catch both you and Zak for the right reasons, and then say I'm lucky? What the fuck man?

Alright, you know what? Fuck you Kefit, I caught you and you'll just call me names to diminish the fact you screwed up.

Maybe I'd stop the antagonism if people would THINK before they'd post. But, I'll note something. Had Sakana told me I was crossing lines, I WOULD HAVE TRIED HARDER TO BACK OFF. Jesus christ how many times have I told you mods to TELL ME!?

Anyway, it's not OMGUS, Kefit. OMGUS implies I had NO REASON other than you casing me. That's a lie.

Cut by Affinity: Not sure about Zak. If he attacked anyone else the same way he did me, I'd still call him on it. Kefit is harder, but the rest of his post was pretty bad IIRC, and I stated why. I mostly focused on the bad case on me though.

Anyway Affinity, I suggest you look at Shoe last game, where I ALSO caught all the scum.

@Affinity: Look at my vote list in lylo. Which two people were at top?

I think you just want to feel good about your terrible play. That's the only reason you are laying into me being right. That's the only reason anyone is.

Honestly, we all need to calm the fuck down because I'm basically at the point where I temporarily hate all of you because you have to make excuses because I actually was right!

You all just want to diminish my acheivment because you didn't manage it. And that's just bullshit.





UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #486 on: September 24, 2010, 03:48:01 PM »
EBWOP: No, I'm not blameless, I'm terrible at controlling myself and terrible at persuasiveness. Yes, my antagonism was needless. I still feel I should have been warned by Sakana or Serp. Hell, Serp told me D1 and you saw me dial it back! I assumed I was fine because nothing else was said directly to me. Either way, I feel you all are giving me a raw deal for some arcane reason, whether it's because you dislike me or my play or what.


UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #487 on: September 24, 2010, 04:08:22 PM »
Also! To everyone.

You say my playstyle is antagonistic. You know what I want from you all? Tell me why, and tell me what I should do instead. I am PRETTY SURE that will solve a lot of the problems, since part of the problem is that I don't have any idea what's "acceptable" while getting my point across. Granted, I also shouldn't catharsis things in the game with a post. But still, be specific! Help me change, ok?

EDIT: I promise to bite my tongue and not argue, btw.

EDIT: Also, assume I don't know any better. Be condescendingly explicit. It helps, I promise.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 04:10:42 PM by UncertainKitten »


Chaore

  • Kai Ni Recipient Many Years Late
  • *
  • You Finally Did It, Kadokawa.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #488 on: September 24, 2010, 04:28:15 PM »
Oh, at that? I'd appreciate it if next time someone wants to say I'm being antagonistic, they just tell me instead of saying I'm ruining fucking everything.

When I said that hurt in the QT, I mean that literally fucking hurt me in the squishy spot, Bard. I play this game to have fun, and the idea that I'm ruining the game for others is absolutely painful. If I was town I honestly probably would've asked for a modkill after that one. I don't know if that was part of your claimed sarcasm or what the hell, you could've handled that a lot better- See exactly how Kilga and Sakana did.

It's one thing to insituate someone is scum because they're picking on newbies as a scum tactic, It's another to suggest they're scaring new players away from the game.

Nat Tea

  • ★三 ☆三 ★三 ☆三 ★三
  • 三☆ 三★ 三☆ 三★ 三☆
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ N4
« Reply #489 on: September 24, 2010, 04:50:04 PM »
Choja, you tried. That's really all one can ask.
I know that, but I also made an incredible (even ridiculous) amount of
bad decisions D1 and D2 which led to my eventual and quick demise. Let's see:

  • Lied about catching up at D1 to make it so that I wasn't labelled as a lurker or worse, modkilled by Sakana.
  • Dragged in what was obviously a joke from the last game I was in as a case.
  • Voted for an extension when I didn't know you were going to turn your vote to another player.
  • Forgot that Sakana didn't have a no-lynch rule.
  • Defended Bardiche in D2 even though that was probably an extremely bad idea in itself.
  • Got aggravated at the result of your reread and got myself targetted as a result.
  • Thought that I was one of those potential assholes in the group of people that Kilgamayan mentions in the signups thread.

I'm finding it difficult to discover why I had fun in the last game I played in. I'll get over it. Maybe. I'm still very angry at myself for playing this bad though.
Horie dorie~
Pixiv: http://pixiv.me/choja / PSO2: Choja (Ship5) / 3DS: 3496-9942-9472 / PSVITA: choja206 (English) / chojahiragawajpn (Japanese) / Cosplays: Koishi Komeiji, Kogasa Tatara
Tumblr contains cooking and cosplay. Twitter contains me retweeting everything.
I draw but I do not use artist title. I also write, but I have been inactive lately. I want to get better at those things and more!

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #490 on: September 24, 2010, 04:53:49 PM »
Everyone has a bad game. Also, Choja, any responses to this post? I'm honestly sick of pissing people off and want to fix it.


Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #491 on: September 24, 2010, 05:23:05 PM »
I think you just want to feel good about your terrible play. That's the only reason you are laying into me being right. That's the only reason anyone is.

wow

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #492 on: September 24, 2010, 05:26:28 PM »
Quote
Honestly, we all need to calm the fuck down because I'm basically at the point where I temporarily hate all of you because you have to make excuses because I actually was right!

rage, etc. I spoke out of anger. Not that I particularly regret that one because I feel like I'm getting far more than my portion of bullshit, Mr.Edible. I also feel like I'm not being given credit where credit is due, but I feel like I'm certainly getting blasted for everything I can be blasted for, and more.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 05:28:22 PM by UncertainKitten »


Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #493 on: September 24, 2010, 05:29:37 PM »
Congratulations, you were correct in mafia at the expense of alienating every other player and non-player who reads mafia games on here.

The above sentence should explain all relevant positions, I believe.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #494 on: September 24, 2010, 05:32:05 PM »
That's nice. But you're vague. Right now, you've identified a problem. I disagree with the scale, but lets go with that assumption.

So, are you just going to talk about how terrible the problem is, or be constructive and suggest a solution? Or are you only good at the criticism part of constructive criticism? I'm open to change. I'm not open to being sniped just because you have a chip on your shoulder.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 05:34:01 PM by UncertainKitten »


Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #495 on: September 24, 2010, 05:39:05 PM »
Edible: I take it you're saying your bit out here. If so, I'll take that at face value.

UK: Back off on replying for a while please. Once the people with stuff to say have posted, wait a bit more and then respond.

Kilgamayan

  • True
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  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #496 on: September 24, 2010, 08:20:05 PM »
All right, let me have a try at this. People might be surprised how much of this write-up is based on personal experience.

It is also worth noting that, aside from the very obviously specific-to-UK examples (like the MotK Mafioso mention), this write-up can apply to everyone.

Mafia is an arguing-centric game, so it's only natural that people are going to get riled up. Lord only knows how many times it's happened to me over the years. The number one thing I think anyone can do when they get mad is step back. Go browse some other part of the forum, tab away from the forum entirely, or even move away from the keyboard. Take a deep breath or three. Relieve stress in a harmless manner. (Serp explained the background circumstances of that edited post to me - this is a good start! Just, yeah, as much as I'm sure you've already told yourself this, do your best to avoid that sort of slip-up again.) Most importantly, remember your win con. This is Priority One while playing Mafia. Not shouting some idiot down, not winning a moral victory. Getting town a team victory. You will do your win con better by responding to accusations with logic than with vitriol.

When you're a townie and someone makes a shaky case on you, 98% of the time, it's going to be due to one of these factors:

- The player in question is new and/or a relatively weak player. Getting mad at them will only serve to make them not want to play more. This works against your win con. If you go about dissecting their case logically without being snide or using rhetoric or insults, however, they may be internally upset that their case turned out to be wrong, but they will be upset in a way that spurs them on to find a newer, better case, and to improve as a player. Veering townies away from cases on town AND inspiring them to play better works toward your win con.

- The player in question is scum (or otherwise anti-town). Getting mad at them will show scum you're shakeable, and even worse, it may encourage townies to start looking in your direction, regardless of how otherwise sound your defense is. This works against your win con. If you go about dissecting their case logically without being snide or using rhetoric or insults, however, the rest of town will be able to see how smoothly and easily their case had holes poked in it. You will look better as a result, and they will look worse for making such a bad case in the first place, not to mention they have the "bonus" of trying to find a new person to BS a case on while they're under heavy scrutiny. This works toward your win con.

- The player in question is choosing between you and someone that looks better than you in LYLO. If this happens and it leads to a scum victory, there's nothing to be done except tip your cap to scum for a well-played game, and then spend the rest of postgame going over why you were chosen over them and seeing what you can fix for the future. Mafia is a game, but it's a social game, so good sportsmanship is important. And, most of the time, the person that makes the wrong choice in LYLO is going to feel really bad about it (all the more reason not to rub it in that they made the wrong choice - personal experience speaks on this one), and will be more than open to figuring out why they made the wrong choice and what they can do to avoid making that wrong choice in the future.

- The player in question is ignoring their win con in favor of carrying out a personal vendetta against you. If this is the case, you can simply ignore it, as they will be slammed hard for it after the game. Or you can bring it up with the game mod and have them talk to this person. If that person refuses to back down, ignore them and let the mod handle them. I know that I don't want people actively being anti-win-con assholes in my games and will gladly remove any such offenders as I please.

Then there is the occasional oddity, like an Insane/Paranoid Cop getting a Guilty return on you, to which there's nothing you can do but shrug your shoulders postgame and go "it was part of the setup". Or maybe someone is just simply flat-out mistaken, to which the bullet point about the new/inexperienced player largely applies. Getting mad at an experienced player over a case is more likely to make them want to hold on and not let go, which hurts both of you (and your team and win con as a result). Everyone makes in-game mistakes sometimes; it's best to just let them go after the fact. (Imagine what it would have been like if bofh had gone on a public multi-paragraph rant about how stupid you are after MotK Mafioso, just because you made a mistake.) No one wants to be on the receiving end of one of those, especially when they know they made a mistake.

As you can see, in all of these examples, going the logic route instead of going the vitriol route either works better toward your win con (the "game" part) or works better toward your social interactions (the "social" part), and it does so without risking damage to the one it doesn't actively work toward (if there is one).

What specifically can you do to quelch vitriol? I'll point again at the post you edited away, and the purpose behind its existence. That's a good start. Private, away-from-the-game stress relief can work, even something as cliche as punching a pillow. There are other things you can do, too.

- Don't call things "stupid", "retarded", "bullshit", "fucking [negative adjective]", or the like. No one likes being treated like that. I'm sure you don't. Instead, try things like "This is just silly, as [fairly obvious core Mafia reasoning]" or "This is factually incorrect, as can be seen in [post number/link]" or "That is not what I meant, and by looking at [post number/link], [post number/link] and [post number/link], you can see it is pretty clear what I DID mean, which is [reiteration of previous stance]". If someone is wrong about you, don't tell them they're wrong, show them they're wrong.
- Remind yourself that it's just a game, and that humans are liable to make mistakes. No one is going after you personally (aside from maybe RVS but that can be brushed off as lolRVS), and if they are they will be dealt with either during or after the game.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #497 on: September 24, 2010, 08:21:22 PM »
Ok. I'm going to note that this point that Affinity's post was so wrong, careless, and overall terrible, not in the scum sense but in the anti-town silliness sense, that I actually had to take a 15 minute break before continuing. I'd appreciate it if both you and Kefit actually read the game so your posts didn't read like you were just making up a pile of crap to look productive. I think that's the kindliest way I can put things.

1) Don't insult your fellow players.
2) Don't tack on pithy statements that emphasize the insults such as "I think that's the kindest way I can put things" or "I had to take a 15 minute break before I could continue."
3) This is just one example of many, but probably what sticks out the worst to me.
4) Don't try to excuse your behavior by saying you were angry. Tough. Deal with your anger without taking it out on your fellow players. This game tends to stir a lot of emotions in players, but everyone is expected to remain civil.

Zak's kill I give you some credit for. As I said in the scumtopic, you got him for the right reason on d1. However, any n1 vig shot is going to involve a substantial amount of luck, especially if it's your MO to use the vig on n1 every time. Congrats on getting it right, that's something a lot of players never manage.

As for your case on me, I still don't really get what it was. Affinity was pursuing my narrow-minded d2 (his best point by far) along with picking at the nuances of my subsequent posts. However, at least to all the other players, your points against me were either non-existent or lost in a cloud of fiery antagonism and indignant OMGUS. I honestly replied to the only salient points I could pick out with this post, and your only response to this was to say that the post sucked. That's not an argument. That's an attempt to bully your way into being right in lieu of logical argument. And that doesn't work in this game, at least not when faced with players of the caliber we had alive on d4. If you had a better case against me, then no one saw it because it wasn't written in your posts.

You might get angry reading the above paragraph. But stop and think for a second. This is post-game. Affinity and I have no reason to lie to you. Neither of us saw the logical case you had against me. At the very least you failed to properly communicate during the game itself.

Look, I liked reading your posts on d1 and d2. They were fiery in a peppy, enjoyable way. You got down to business without resorting to insults, even if you occasionally came off as a bit holier than thou. But then on d3 your gloves came off, and I think that we started largely tuning you out. No one wants to sift through a mountain of insults and pithy statements to try and find pieces of a logical argument that may or may not exist within a post. And this is not how anyone writing a post for this game should desire others to view their handiwork.

p.s. Reading the scum topic as a losing townie is a sure way to get angry. The scum topic is a very powerful tool (one that I often see woefully underutilized), and one of its many functions is as a morale booster for the scum. Try to read everything said about town players with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 08:49:44 PM by Kefit »

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #498 on: September 24, 2010, 08:46:31 PM »
...what, the game is over? Affinity, wth lol  :V

yeah I was p.idiotic this game, I guess I'm like the most inconsistent player ever (I did really well last two games ): ) but at least in the end I knew the scum in the graveyard. Whatever, that's worthless. I need to do better next time. I wouldn't have ever even tried such a stupid gambit if I hadn't been so worthless for the first two days, which is my fault.

Oh it's time to host my game! This really kind of came at a badish time, but honestly, I should be totally ready to start the game by the time all the slots are filled, so that's fine. Off to post in signups thread!

Note to anyone who saw me talking about my game in irc within a few months ago:I toned it down okay ): But it should still be p.interesting.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #499 on: September 24, 2010, 09:03:09 PM »
When I said that hurt in the QT, I mean that literally fucking hurt me in the squishy spot, Bard.

While not as much as being hurt in the squishy spot, your actions only served to increase my increasing frustration with the game set off at the start by UncertainKitten. After that time you retained your antagonistic streak and I lost interest more and more in the game. I spent most of LYLO just posting garbage, knowing it served absolutely nothing because I was stalling having anything to do with the game.

The entire game I have been frustrated and angry with how everything was going. I requested a replacement/modkill on D1 or D2 and retracted it a few hours later because I did not want to saddle up Sakana with modkills or replacements if it could be helped and I've sucked up as much as I could the entire game.

So, no, I won't apologise for what I've said because it would be insincere. At that time, I really felt you were ruining the game with your antagonism, and at that time you complained primarily that I was gunning for lurkers, which I linked to you due to your own low amount of posts moreso as a throw-away line of "IF I really did that, I would need to add you to that list. That I have NOT added you to my list of suspects is because I do not use that as a basis of scumhunting". Did I word that wrongly? Well, sure, but did I have any ill intent at that time?

No. My massive displeasement with you came only after the snide remarks, and after that I refused to read your posts in detail because I was sure that getting into a catfight with you would end in modkills, and I wanted to avoid getting in a situation where I'd want to step out of the game.

---

As far as ruling by basis of elimination, I think it was more sincere and as town, I do not like to lie about my reasons for voting beyond what is necessary. "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". This line of reasoning led me to scumKefit, and it did not fail me in particular.

If you pay attention, I also went on to actually find things on Kefit that I could reasonably level against him as suspect content, due to a failure of suspicious content in Affinity's posts, and my belief at the time that Chaore's dogged persistance in pursuing me was not pro-town, but it was so bad on so many levels and ignored by so many people I was content to leave him be.

Had I entered LYLO with Affinity, Chaore and myself, I would have likely voted Chaore for the basic principle that Not Me Over Me, assuming he'd come out guns blazing at me. In the end, I think scum would still have won, and so they played a good game.

A shame Affinity decided on the out-there theory that UK was scum, but what can you do. It's a theory I've certainly entertained, but it just seemed so absurd to me and it would be UK-like to support her conviction with a vig shot. No one else paid any notice to Zakeri's death, and so I spent most the game thinking UK vigged him. UNtil she claimed Witch, then I remembered reading one which could poison and assume she did that.

I was shaken when she claimed having protected Kilga N1, but things became better near the end as I just A) don't actually like reading UK's posts due to the antagonistic vibes I get from her and B) assumed UK was town by virtue of the role and it just being too ridiculous a stratagem to actually employ.

That said, I think I will be abstaining from joining further games. While I will not take back my comment nor apologise for it to Chaore, I do feel that I went too far if I caused him grief, and I have no intention of being a demotivator to another's game at all. Given my views of UK, I also feel that it is best I not share a game with her again, as Mafia isn't big enough for the both of us apparently!

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #500 on: September 24, 2010, 09:13:51 PM »
To do share a bit of response on UncertainKitten, and I will try to say this in a nice and harmless way. I can say the following on what causes my ire with you.

First of all, it is an attitude thing. At one point I began ignoring you, the reason of which was to avoid getting pissed off and doing Stupid Things. You replied demanding that I respond to you and telegraph my reasons for ignoring you.

To you, you were probably trying to figure out why I was ignoring you and to try and ameliorate that, or work beyond it. To me, you were being a self-centred, tantrum-throwing UncertainKitten who was obnoxiously demanding I enter a fight with her so she could show how wrong I was.

Which leads into Problem Number 2 I have with your conduct in Mafia. It is the insistence that you are absolutely faultless and that any case on you must be supported by linking every post and to argue the minute details of each moment to a perfection, which is honestly a tiring and exhausting venture. To demand this of players is to demand a level of effort you deem appropriate, and to be inconsiderate of what they consider Proper Mafia Effort.

When I pressed you for active lurking, obviously, I was convinced you were actively lurking by refusing to say anything except in response to others. It was a declaration to be passive and bring forth no plan of action, instead hanging back waiting for others to do things and then analyse that.

Your response was antagonistic insofar that you basically treated me like some five-year-old who accidentally blundered into a Mafia thread and dared to not understand you are Town. It came off as a haughty defence, and the "link me to every instance" thing is again a matter of inconsiderate behaviour and demands for all others to adjust themselves to you.

It is these problems, and majorly the demand that everyone adjust themselves to you if they want to interact with you, that make me shy away from you and want little if nothing to do with you when it is related to Mafia games. I am sure you can be a nice and amazing person to talk to out of Mafia games, but at present I have no desire to share a Mafia game with you, as I am still as massively frustrated as I was at the inception of the argument between the two of us in the early game.

Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #501 on: September 24, 2010, 09:22:20 PM »
Anyway, searching the right combination of words like the ones I did hit upon a pastebin that had a description of everyone's roles and who was who as the second link.
I found it by stalking Serela over google.

:getdown:

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #502 on: September 24, 2010, 09:36:41 PM »
Hmm...yeah...those all make a lot of sense. I'm sorry you feel I was expecting too much of you, Bard. I honestly didn't see your accusation so I wanted you to prove it. The way I went about it was bad, though...

Anyway, Kefit, yeah, it looks like I kinda failed to say anything of substance on why you were scummy. I wish I could remember now what triggered and proved it to me. I don't think that I got lucky on you, but I DO think that I failed miserably in explaining the logic, and now I don't even know what it is anymore since I never noted it. So I think I understand why everyone is saying I got lucky, now. I guess I assumed everyone was a mind reader so I could have moral high ground which in retrospect was pretty stupid of me.

I'm not really getting into more than that because I basically don't see anything wrong with the analyses provided. They all make a lot of sense. I'll do my best to work on them whether it's here and/or on MS for awhile (I'm...ah...not sure I'll be playing mafia here for awhile)

I do want to ask one thing of you, Bard. If I am given the opportunity to return to mafia here, I'd like you to at least entertain the thought of giving me a second chance. I don't actually like pissing people off. I don't like being disliked. And I want to fix the conflict here. Of course, it's entirely your prerogative and it'd be absurd to expect you to just say yes. But...I'd like you to consider it.


UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #503 on: September 24, 2010, 10:55:37 PM »
So, I've been discussing things in PM, and a wonderful suggestion was lighted upon that I think could work.

Yeah, I need to do my best to follow the advice in here, and will do so. But, also, I think that if players would be willing to tell me when I'm being offensive in a neutral way, and more importantly explain why (as opposed to what usually happens where I'm just called antagonistic and then ignored), we'd have an even higher chance of an enjoyable game. Like, here's an example I was given.


UK: "Kefit is scum. ##VOTE. Wake me up when he's dead. The case on Kilga is retarded."

Player: "UK, that's offensive. We think the case on Kilga is good, why is it retarded?"

The main components of the hypothetical player's admonishment are these. One, it neutrally assesses the statement as offensive, as opposed to calling me or my behavior names (yay hypocrisy, yeah, I know). The second part is a succinct explanation of game relevant views. The third part, and one of the most important, is it questions my assumption, and isolates where the problem is. This is a more powerful tool than you'd think. I'm trying to question myself more, prompting me will help a lot with that.

I HOPE such admonishment won't be required in future games I'm in, but I think having that as a failsafe is the most optimal solution. Does that sound at all like a good idea?


Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #504 on: September 24, 2010, 11:12:54 PM »
@UK: Okay, reading your quicktopic sort of proves that it was quite far from luck.  And I suppose I was wrong about that list, sorry about that.

Also, your suggestion could work, but there was one instance here which you have to be careful... If we think that a post is a little out of line and say that, you have to accept it, I think.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #505 on: September 24, 2010, 11:15:55 PM »
Yeah, I'm aware I have to not bite your heads off if you call me out. That'd be counter productive. I'll point out that post did lack an explanation, but my reaction was still uncharitable.

Basically, I think the explanation portion is what's going to carry it best.

At any rate, Kilga brings up a good point about how I reacted to your vote, Affinity. I was way out of line there as well, and trashing you after you'd probably been feeling bad was really insensitive of me. I owe you an apology for at least that, and probably my overall conduct this game. So...I'm sorry about the antagonism and then heaping on a bunch of shame on you for making an honest mistake you probably already felt bad about.



Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #506 on: September 24, 2010, 11:24:14 PM »
No worries.  Part of it was warranted though; I can understand how being suddenly voted like that in LyLO could have made you angry.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #507 on: September 24, 2010, 11:26:28 PM »
Eh, gets into the difference between being angry and how you express that anger. Getting angry was perfectly justified. The way I displayed it was completely unjustifiable and honestly quite rude and terrible. You made a bad choice, but I'm pretty sure everyone does, several times.


Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #508 on: September 24, 2010, 11:28:09 PM »
You didn't lose us the game anyway, Affinity. It was a team effort. Don't feel bad about it.

Also, UK is trying to shift all the blame to herself, so just call her out on it and get her to stop. ;)

UK quit it if Affinity says she is partly at fault as well, just nod and stop trying to argue who is the most at fault. It's not a contest of "most to blame". ;(

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN
« Reply #509 on: September 24, 2010, 11:32:15 PM »
You made a bad choice, but I'm pretty sure everyone does, several times.
hi  :]
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore