Author Topic: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)  (Read 59731 times)

Drake

  • *
Why this has spread into the accomplishments thread I have no fucking clue. Arguments go here.

UFO shot analysis. Notice how 1.00 power is on average at least 80% of the power of 4.00. Admittedly the options are a fair bit weaker, but it's waaaaaay less of a difference than most people make it out to be.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 05:59:24 PM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Quote
Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit
Help Me Eirin in a nutshell.

Drake

  • *
That's the point. I along with many people would rather it not be HME in a nutshell.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Bananamatic

finally a decent thread

I wouldn't say UFO Lunatic is bullshit, which let's be honest is the main point of the thread. I'm just irritated at the multitude of deaths I have that I would have thought I could avoid, along with PSM, RT/RTG, Vajra and LFO being insurmountable in my mind. Yeah, you can bomb pretty much everything, but I haven't tried for a serious Lunatic 1cc yet because LFO *destroys* me so bad that it isn't even funny, so I would need to adopt the Kaguya plan (i.e. get to boss with an abundance of resources) to have a chance, and I know that's incredibly unlikely. Having a history of 3/107 (or something) for a midboss card (RT) makes me feel somewhat ill.

There's other small things, like the last wave of Stage 5 seemingly being a lottery in terms of a random scatter bullet killing you, or the psychological impact that seeing your weapon power going down can have ("My shots are useless, I can't win...") or the bizzare problem I have where I fail the easiest dodges ever on a frequent basis, Ichirin's 2nd for example. I don't see how I can get four Lunatic 1ccs and capture some of the stupidest shit in the series multiple times and STILL have bother with things like moving upward in a straight line at the right moment.

And yet, despite all the complaints I have, Mushihimesama's last attack looks harder than anything in the entire series, so I know it could be so much worse.
Quote from Myosotis:
"Marriage is a game you can't win. Also, no replay value and the level design is bullshit.

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
I cannot argue that UFO has hard danmaku, because it does. However, as has been stated, people are too quick to make BS a synonym for really hard. I've spent over 50 hours on UFO, and there are only a few things I would truly classify as BS:

1. Parasol Star Memories with anyone other than Marisa A or Sanae B.
2. The last part of UFO stage 5, which I admit is almost completely up to luck.

Oh, there are some hard things, but I find most of UFO to be really fun and exciting, especially compared to SA.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Bananamatic

greatest treasure


Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
you're supposed to bomb Greatest Treasure anyway for MOAR UFOS :V
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Bananamatic

king kraken strike

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
king kraken strike
>Bullets move downwards
>Move towards the areas with less bullets
>Dodge sparse bullets
Let's fight.

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
you're supposed to bomb Greatest Treasure anyway for MOAR UFOS :V
I'm surprised people aren't doing this in their 1cc's.

Protip: Enter Mid-Boss!Nazrin with a Green UFO, walk out with more resources. You could chaff it up to memorization but this is nothing compared to other Shmups.

king kraken strike
:dealwithit:
I have a near 100% cap rate with ReimuA / MarisaA just fyi.
Cut: ohai
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

Bananamatic

2nd to last ichirin

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
2nd to last ichirin
Under the third fist, over the fourth one (left, right, right, left, repeat) over and over until captured like so.
Let's fight.

how u dodj bulletz

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
Let's fight.

2nd to last ichirin

I'm going to respond with "l2dodge" to 90% of everything you say in this thread
Spoiler:
which is much better than the 100% of Enigma's posts that will warrant the response

just fyi.

I have a near 100% cap rate with ReimuA / MarisaA just fyi.
Yeah because they can both kill it on her way back to the right side the first time :V



:dealwithit:
I have a near 100% cap rate with ReimuA / MarisaA just fyi.
Cut: ohai

Not everyone uses ReimuA/MarisA. And you still have the bullshit of brofists covering the bullets. I can't read that shit when they're being obscured. And MarisA gets it bad anyway due to having a huge hitbox.

Bananamatic

bury in lake

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Not everyone uses ReimuA/MarisA.
Oh, but (just about?) everybody who is complaining at the moment are using ReimuA / MarisaA / SanaeB (who can, by the way, do it in a very similar amount of time given proper usage).

bury in lake
You might as well list everything in one post.
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

omgrandomnumbers

  • ( Very Slowly) Rising Star
  • Physically unable to take it easy
Wait, since when did this thread become Spellcard help? We're here to flame, goddamit.

Barrakketh

  • You're suddenly Director of Fixing That Shit!
  • Vice President of It's Your Problem Now.
Let's bring this over to this thread:

The problem is that ZUN blatantly encourages this, what with the design of "Xu Fu's Dimension" forcing you to exploit tiny amulet hitboxes while streaming, and "Danmaku Paranoia" encouraging tiny movements that would result in dead Reimu if the circle hitboxes weren't so small. Players are used to amulet hitboxes and water-drop hitboxes being nearly non-existent. That's why clipdeath from them is so annoying.
XFD's amulets move straight, and the gaps between the sprites are big enough to accommodate your hitbox...and you can also avoid most of the bullets.  Also, spell practice.  Danmaku Paranoia only requires periodic small movements when Koishi moves (and thus there are the aimed bullets that you move around), and the gap between the bullets is still big enough for your hitbox to avoid touching the sprite.  Better still, the angle of the bullets is such that you'd have to make a fairly big mistake to hit a corner.
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?


ReimuB and MarisA Patchouli.
Eternal Meek(Lunatic)

Young Demon Lord(Lunatic)
Vampire Illusion

And that's just from EoSD.

I wouldn't post the whole UFO spellcard list, but a lot of them are luck based garbage.

Ecthel

  • Jack of all trades, lazy at most.
For all the games I've played, once I realized that I was making mistakes and the game could, in fact, be beaten, I would get a clear shortly afterward. Coincidence?

Also, for shmups specifically, once I started being more liberal with bombs, I often got much farther. Coincidence?

PS: Don't forget difficulty levels!
<smartass>
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Spell_Cards
Wait, this has the easy cards too... Sorry man  :V
</smartass>

Drake

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ReimuB Patchouli
Opener is done the same way as everyone else. Bury in Lake you just dodge the small bullets then follow the path Patchy sets for you. There are never any actual walls, just your reaction time to read the path. Second non is done the same way as everyone else. Green Storm is dodging. Water Elf is dodging, stay under Patchouli at all times. Mercury Poison is dodging. Emerald Megalith is dodging, stay under Patchouli.
MarisA Patchouli
Sylphae Horn is dodging. Agni Radiance is dodging, the fire's hitbox IS NOT THE SAME AS GLOWY BULLETS. Lava Cromlech is dodging. Forest Blaze is dodging. Emerald Megalith is dodging, stay under Patchouli.
Eternal Meek(Lunatic)
Dodge. Use safespot if truly needed.
Young Demon Lord(Lunatic)
Follow Remi. Choose the proper space to dodge properly in. Stay far away from the medium bullets.
Vampire Illusion
Dodge. This one I agree can be very iffy and will form walls on you given a high enough rank. The bullets are slow, so bomb it if you see a wall. You don't die out of fucking nowhere.
And that's just from EoSD.
Good, because everything you've mentioned so far is answered with "dodge". You're supposed to give bullshitty cards, not ask for help because you can't beat them. I do agree that Vampire Illusion can be crap at high rank, but with the amount of help you need on this game you can guarantee it'll be fairly low anyways.
I wouldn't post the whole UFO spellcard list, but a lot of them are luck based garbage.
Bring it, princess.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

And how is Eternal Meek even humanly possible to dodge consistently without the safespot?

I have captured everything Lunatic Patchouli has except for Sylphae Horn High Level. That doesn't mean the attacks aren't garbage.

I do that on Young Demon Lord. I've still been walled though.

Doesn't it having a high chance of forming walls make it BS? And is Vampire Illusion even affected by Rank? I thought Remilia's only card that was affected by rank was Young Demon Lord.

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
And how is Eternal Meek even humanly possible to dodge consistently without the safespot?

I have captured everything Lunatic Patchouli has except for Sylphae Horn High Level. That doesn't mean the attacks aren't garbage.
You seem to be mistaking 'I do not like this spell card' and/or 'this spell card is too difficult for me to clear consistently' for 'this is a bad attack'. You should probably look into that. :V
Seriously, Drake just outlined pretty much the main point; you actually have to just dodge things, and if you can't do that, practice until you can. I still have some problems with Sylphae Horn High Level, and I'm not a huge fan of it, but there is nothing at all wrong with the attack; I simply need to improve.
Let's fight.

Drake

  • *
Young Demon Lord will throw a concentrated spread of bullets. If you do not have enough room to dodge, you will likely die. You will not likely die if you choose a proper spot to stay in. I already agreed that Vamp Illusion can be BS if you don't tackle it properly. As said above, there is nothing preventing you from just bombing it if it throws a wall. It does not throw walls at you absolutely every time you play, either.

But dodge consistently? No one's saying anything about dodging consistently, or easily, for that matter. As far as I can see, you're expecting to be able to dodge absolutely everything in the game without any problems. This will not happen, ever. Touhou on Lunatic are not easy games. You need your resources. If you seriously expect the game to hand you captures on a silver platter you're terribly wrong. IT IS HARD. DEAL WITH IT. USE YOUR FUCKING BOMBS. I just captured Eternal Meek, on Lunatic, on my second attempt in Stage Practice. Practice. Practice ittttttttt. You get better at dodging, you dodge the damn bullets. It's that simple. I don't think you seem to be grasping the concept of "hard game". When all you need to do in an attack is dodge, you dodge the bullets. There is no garbage involved whatsoever. If you aren't good enough, you bomb. You don't bomb, you die. You practice, you get better.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
And how is Eternal Meek even humanly possible to dodge consistently without the safespot?

You capture it with inhuman reflexes. :3

Now, let me get something off my chest now that an appropriate thread has been made for it.

Subterranean Animism. This is one of my least favorite Touhou games, and only above SoEW in my liking of the shmups. I have never understood the appeal of this game, especially when people dislike UFO so much. Why, you ask? Well, let's go in depth. Keep in mind this is only my opinion, which should invalidate anything I say right off the bat. :V

First, the music. A lot of people really like the music in this game, but I...DO NOT. :o Granted, this IS ZUN, so there's very little of the music I outright dislike. However, the music feels a little less inspired than usual. Songs like Yugi's theme feel a little half-hearted, and the stage 1 theme is outright grating. For every Last Remote there is a Heartfelt Fancy. It doesn't help that the worst songs play over the worst parts of the game. I could go on, but SA's music doesn't do it for me overall.

The lives system is also something that has annoyed me for a long time. The lives system is built with a cruel logic behind it: The people who are awesome at the game get to be more awesome, reaching max lives by stage 6. The people who are not so good on the other hand are handed less lives because they survive less attacks, digging a big hole for themselves. The power system is also sadistic in the way it handles deaths. Satori is a great example: It you die between 3.00 and 4.00 power against her first three attacks, you'll come out with 3.20 power. Before her three recollection spells, Satori gives you .75 power, leaving you with...3.95 power. Each spell card break gives you .50 power back, meaning that unless you capture some spell cards, you'll NEVER reach full power in this fight. The game loves to do this, and IMO it is worse than UFO's power system, which is at least consistent in how much you lose.

Next, the general stage design. SA relies on memorization much more than the rest of the shmups, and it shows. Stuff like stage 3 and stage 4 are downright impossible until you learn the patterns. Unfortunately, the fact that the patterns can be learned is a poor excuse for patterns that are full of clipdeath. Border of Wave and Particle is a particularly guilty example of this. Because it's a 20 second repeating pattern that is static, most people tease me for finding it hard. Even if it's static, the pattern, particularly the "wave" part, are very easy to clip. The attack has too large a health bar and combined with this, even I find myself using the safespot to avoid ruining a 1cc attempt.

The big part of the game that ticks me off is the obscene amount of areas that kill you via clipdeath. Turning to stage 4 once again, the laser spams are pretty much down to luck for short-ranged Reimu A, as the lasers may very well not leave an opening that can be worked with. Uncontainable Nuclear Reaction and Subterranean Sun both take their difficulty almost entirely from forcing you to make precision movements through a bunch of bullet types with tight hitboxes. Without exception every Touhou has this to an extent, but SA takes this to ridiculous levels. Parsee's sole avenue of difficulty comes from random clips. Clipdeath after clipdeath is simply not fun in my book.

And that's the biggest issue of all: The attacks just are not fun. When I thought about it really hard, I could not think of a single boss in this game I could say I thoroughly enjoyed. The one I play the most is Satori, but that is because I am a masochist and for some reason like to bang my head against a fight I really dislike. Every stage and every boss has a gimmick that is either annoying or unfun, and all rely on clipdeath. Therefore, I conclude my reasoning on why I dislike Subterranean Animism.

tl;dr: SA SUX U ALL TEH SUXXORZ
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet