Medaka Box Mafia - Night 4

[BT]

I'm seeing...I guess, I think BT is throwing out a lot of WIFOMing over the CF7 situation.  Conq is kind of playing back with it but the situation is so ludicrous to me.  BT is going 'if he was scum...xyz' 'optimal plays xyz'.  Look.  As soon as you try to guess what somebody would do 'if they are scum', you're doing wifom.  #1 You don't know if they are scum #2 if they are scum, you dont know if they are making an optimal play because you don't know their situation and #3 even people with all the information sometimes make sub optimal decisions.  Out of this debate, I consider Conq 'winning/least scummy'. 

What are you talking about? Seriously, point out specific parts of the posts, because I have no idea.

I'll try digesting that post as a whole after I take a shower.

[Conqueror]

Out of this debate, I consider Conq 'winning/least scummy'. 

Just because two people are having a discussion doesn't mean one of them has to be scum, ftr.

I'll get back to the rest of BT's post later, although I'm more interested in Shadoweh's response. Also, I have no idea whether this is CF7's usual town behaviour (the last town game I played with him was Raikaria's game where he had ISP issues or something). I do know he gets a lot of pressure in most games. I can see where some of the votes are on him are coming from. I don't know if he's scum though.

There's no tiny glimmer of content I can point at that proves he's trying to play the game.

I know what you're saying, but I think he's perfectly capable of putting forth as scum (if his Xykon posts were any indication). In any case, I think in order for this conversation to go any further CF7 needs to post.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Votecount
CF7 (4): NekoNekoRex, Shadoweh, BT, Kingault
Serela (3): Bardiche, Zakeri, CF7
Sky Paladin (2): Sacchi Hikaru, Serela
NekoNekoRex (1): SB
BT (1): DrRawr
Kingault (1): Sky Paladin
Zakeri (1): ActionDan
Shadoweh (1): Conqueror
Dr Rawr (0):
ActionDan (0):
SB (0):
Sacchi Hikaru (0):
Conqueror (0):
Bardiche (0):

Not voting:
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

You have ~13.3 hours remaining.

[SB]

Okay Serela, why test the Ascetic when you said yourself that the claim wasn't a strange one to make at all? There was no reason for it at all and there's not even proof it actually happened? I don't like it. Bard's cases have also been decent.

Sky Paladin's posts are bad because he's not actually looking for scum intent. His suspicion on me is because I admitted I misread something when I didn't need to even say anything, his look into Kingault doesn't try to differentiate from bad play/scum motives and his main Serela suspicion was that they disagreed on how to handle an ascetic claim? He even admits that his Kingault push isn't actually that strong.

I'm wary of Conqueror due to the lack of scumreads honestly, especially now that it turns out Zak isn't one of them. As far as I can tell your only serious suspicion at this point is Shadoweh? BT's play has the same awkward feel to it I can't grasp.

@Dormio, if a day ability was activated, would we be notified?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

@Dormio, if a day ability was activated, would we be notified?

In most cases, yes.

[SB]

Okay.

##Unvote
##Vote: Serela

[Sky_Paladin]

Bard

Are you cheerleading me to stay on Serela?

I'm underscoring that I think you're tunneling on Serela.  Do you actually have a scum read on her? 

BT;
Serela wifom
on somebody, maybe Shadoweh?
Here, "The fact he didn't vote Kingault isn't even one of the points I brought up. I think my interpretation of his actions is correct regardless of alignment.", then, "I'm not sure what point I'm making here (should be a few split points thus far), but I struggle to see how all this is null."  You are talking about Shadoweh, right?  Is this my misunderstanding?  I don't understand what you're trying to say. 

Sacchi, do you actually have a scumread on anybody.  Because right now, it just looks like you are arbitrarily defending King.  Remember, King's vote put CF7 at L-2. 

Conq:

Just because two people are having a discussion doesn't mean one of them has to be scum, ftr.

That is true. 

Cut by SB:
Wow. 

##unvote
##vote Serela

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Addendum: I do not announce failures.

[SB]

I'm underscoring that I think you're tunneling on Serela.  Do you actually have a scum read on her? 

do you actually have to ask this

dormio addendum is bleh, i'll work out how i feel about it in the morning i guess

[Sky_Paladin]

Would you announce if an ability (that subsequently failed) was activated?

[BT]

That should be enough of a hint to you guys. Don't lynch Serela.

Sky sounds like he's just confused by the way I explain why behaviors would come from scum? I don't know. I still need to shower.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Would you announce if an ability (that subsequently failed) was activated?

In most cases, no.

[Mr. Sacchi]

SB, why did you clear CF7 despite flat-out saying that he isn't a newbie?

And I got nothing on BT, he's reading null to me though reading this after not taking my mandatory afternoon nap doesn't actually help.

@Cut

Sky, I have no strong scumreads that go beyond "gut" right now, but if I had to give gut scumreads, I would say Shadoweh > Serela > You and that's it. I've already said why I think you're scummy.

Serela is basically the exact same reason that everyone's already pointed out, not doing anything for a good portion of the early day and then testing BT's ascetic claim in a way we can't even know if it's true or not, Shadoweh, on the other hand, is more due to having such an early townread on me, the jump on the CF7 wagon and then doing basically nothing for the rest of the day.

I'm actually willing to vote Shadoweh, but I'm waiting for her next post before doing so. And the only reason I'm not voting Serela right now is because I'm waiting for this whole "ascetic test" thing to end.

choo choo i've been cut three times in a row

...Yeah okay, I don't think I'm gonna risk a lynch on Serela until I have actually valid information then.

[Conqueror]

I'm wary of Conqueror due to the lack of scumreads honestly, especially now that it turns out Zak isn't one of them. As far as I can tell your only serious suspicion at this point is Shadoweh? BT's play has the same awkward feel to it I can't grasp.

Lacking scumreads is totally a towntell for me. But in all seriousness, I don't have trouble finding scumreads when I'm scum. If you want something more clear cut, my current suspicions for scum are in Shadoweh/Kingault, with mostly everyone else in various shades of null leaning whichever. rawr gets to be town, as does Sacchi. Dan, I'm waiting for his updated post to confirm my earlier read on him.

The focus on Serela's ability is a red herring imo. Dormio taking it upon himself to make an addendum is almost enough for me to say Serela is town but let's not go there. :V

[Bardiche]

So yeah. Pre-amble: No matter how many people ask me to give general reads of everyone in the game (and I know some of you ask it really hard, because I can literally hear your voices oozing through my screen), I don't believe in the concept of "reading" people as any alignment other than looking at how their actions benefit a scum agenda and whether they behave in a way I'd think scum would behave.

For Day 1 I expect scum would want to hang back and avoid having attention. Since Day 1 is basically a crapshoot that defines the rest of the game scum will want to avoid being too conspicious and yet be conspiciously inconspicious. i.e. nebulous reads, "i am there but not really" that you only catch on second reads.

Yes, I am scumreading Serela.

Lynch consolidation. Let's see who have votes.

So Sky Paladin. Waffles, then some scumreads (good), then some more reads but I don't get why the vote is on Kingault when there's basically other cases to be had: The Kingault vote is obviously getting no attention and aside from him playfully going "I'm useless teehee", he hasn't done anything meriting a non-policy lynch. Would policy lynch Kingault though.
I don't get how he thinks I'm tunnelling Serela when I've had opinions on non-Serelas, but obviously I'm going to talk most about the person I think is scummiest. (Un)happy coincidence that it happened to be Serela who is defying his meta and not waffling quite as much.

Why'd you vote Serela now in lieu of Kingault? What happened to finally make Kingault not your #1 vote?

I personally would not lynch Sky Paladin, not even for consolidation.


Serela's vote on Sky Paladin nicely reigns in here. It's because according to Serela Sky Pal only voteparked on Kingault. I, too, don't get the vote on Kingault, but Serela's votes up to that point were jokevote and Shadoweh where Serela himself admits he's mostly joking and the vote seems based on the idea that Shadoweh is buddying up to him. As far as I remember Shadoweh's greatest hobby is telling everyone their reads are wrong and that everybody is Town.  In Shadoweh's perfect Mafia, there are no scum. Sadly, there are scum. Serela's the scum.

I digress. Basically Serela voted Sky Paladin for the exact same things he's guilty of and only after he was accruing votes and flak for his lack of content. When questioned on his Shadoweh vote he just regurgitates some waffles about not being confident in the vote and yet not looking quite hard for a place to put a serious and confident vote. Did someone say Scum are less paranoid? Because Serela seems to be lacking that healthy dose of paranoia except where friendliness is concerned.
Then out of nowhere role power use which I don't get since Serela could've done that the moment BT claimed Ascetic. Fair point, whoever made it first.

So yeah, 10/10 case would lynch Serela for not contributing until pressed, and then giving in token contribution. He posts quite a few times, but he's not really saying anything that'll make Day 1 more concerted. Serela displayed absolutely no interest in getting the Town to look ANYWHERE for a great part of Day 1. Sitting back and enjoying the lack of direction when most of the Town was focused on CF7 reeks of scum, since scum benefits from Day 1 being a crapshoot and leaving people confused.


Shadoweh and SB later.

[Serela]

Literally haven't read half the page but what the fucking shit. Suddenly I'm getting a pile of votes on me because I used a power on BT? This is retarded.

Fine, I don't really care anyway. I'm a voteblocker. I can do this every day, so if you're SO SUSPICIOUS I can prove it tomorrow. I targetted BT because I really didn't need to do something else with my role today- it's a voteblock for god-sakes, I probably wouldn't have used it at all otherwise today. Yes, this is kind of an anti-town role, but this isn't the first time a town voteblocker has happened anyway. IMO if I was scum I wouldn't have outted it so easily but that's WIFOM so whatever.

[Serela]

roflllllllllllllllll the part I didn't read was the part where dormio says "erm by the way I don't announce failures" and then everyone went "oh."

gg self

Still don't really care though :V I don't think the scum can do much about my role and it probably doesn't matter if they can, and I doubt they'll kill me for it. No, it doesn't work in lylo, as anyone would guess.

[Sky_Paladin]

I have to go to work so I don't have time to evaluate any further right now.  I was going to cancel my vote after Dormio's explanation, but Bard's case and Serela's subsequent meltdown/claim invites further attention. 

[NekoNekoRex]

I think i'm lost because I have no clue what's happening anymore.

[NekoNekoRex]

Serela's reactions look kinda town to me imo

[NekoNekoRex]

My main beef with SB and CF7 is that they're not really getting anything done, and yet SB is defending CF7 despite the fact CF7 isn't getting anything done.
I have some bad gut reads on SB as well.

Gut-wise I also don't feel good about lynching Serela. As above, his reactions don't feel very scummy.

[ActionDan]

Conq, ever since shadoweh said the newbie (sacchi) and serela were town, I've been shadoweh a town read.  So...

[Dr Rawr]

i have no idea what a vote blocker is. does it just stop a person from voting or does it just remove a vote?

[NekoNekoRex]

Prbably the former since the latter wouldn't stay very useful.

[Serela]

Yeah, it leaves them unable to vote until the next day. I'm kind of busy, will comment later. I just remembered there's no way I'm going to be awake in time for deadline, so I'm only around for a few more hours- so you can expect to see me again soon

[Shadoweh]

Mostly this progression of posts, actually. The statement that CF7's posts are unacceptable feels more like admonishing someone for playing terribly than being confident he's scum, picking on his reasoning for even though CF7 stated outright in the quote Shadoweh quoted that it was gut. Chiding him for not being angry enough isn't reasoning that works because people aren't always angry in the same situations. So Shadoweh, why don't you get where anyone's town reads are coming from? Why is he scum and not fumbling town?

There's also minor stuff like going from "Kingault's vote makes me sick" to "Kingault could be town  :derp: :derp: :derp:" (presumably, that little joke of hers was so vague I don't know what it was referring to) and the fact I usually read her as town and I'm not getting that here. Feels like she's parking on CF7 for the hell of it, or because she can, rather.

That was clearly a post about Serela being town despite Bardiche's lyncher levels of hatred towards him, I still think Kingault is scummy. The first post you quoted is also me talking about Serela and I don't appreciate you making it look like it was addressing CF7. It looks like the only excuse being used not to keep voting CF7 is that he's a newbie being wagoned, which has nothing to do with CF7 himself and more to do with everyone's white-knight instincts and hating the newbies for voting dumb.

I am voting CF7 because I can though. Are you hard-defending your buddy this game? I still don't have a townread on you either and it would be super to actually catch you without vig shots or cops for once. RE: Hounding, I'm trying to remember what game it was with Hero999. I've done it to Serelascum before too. I don't like unvoting until the person actually gives a reason, and I don't see CF7's responses as town that cares. I am not voteparking, that would imply I don't have a scumread on who I'm voting (which sometimes I do). There is no one I am more inclined to lynch right now.

BT: Rawr and I could be masons again. I'm as sure on Dan as you really can be on Dan.

i think im going to fall alsep again so i might not post again for a few hours

[Shadoweh]

Actually I took the time to catch up on Serela's amazing failure action: lolollololololol

Watching Serela swear is still eeerie. You cut that out Sereley. You're suposed to be a good girl, be a good role model for the new people. I find it curious that ascetic blocked a day action considering it usually only stops night actions, but shrug. People wanting to jump on Serela for Doing a Thing just makes his sad towniness more obvious.

PS: I keep seeing calls for reasons CF7 is scum (sad clown apathy has already been cited here) so I'm going to reverse it and ask you again why anyone thinks CF7 is town, using words CF7 himself has posted.

[BT]

Dormio confirmed that I block day actions. It should be obvious that Serela's at least telling the truth about having a day action. The fact that it's a voteblocker (easy to confirm) and he'd bother doing all this combined with his behavior... why is this wagon still here?

Err, anyway, I'll be around for deadline tomorrow. CF7 should claim when he gets on.

[Conqueror]

That was clearly a post about Serela being town despite Bardiche's lyncher levels of hatred towards him, I still think Kingault is scummy. The first post you quoted is also me talking about Serela and I don't appreciate you making it look like it was addressing CF7.

I didn't, it was clearly a post about Serela. >_> I was more pointing out the fact that you declared yourself as super-paying attention Shadoweh when I saw nothing like that.

PS: I keep seeing calls for reasons CF7 is scum (sad clown apathy has already been cited here) so I'm going to reverse it and ask you again why anyone thinks CF7 is town, using words CF7 himself has posted

No, actually. The burden of proof is on you. Otherwise I can just go "Man Look At All These Reasons Shadoweh is Scum. Why Is She Town?"

[Conqueror]

Here Shadoweh, I'll call your bluff.

##Unvote
##Vote: Kingault

You want ~*comparison of game meta~*? Fine, look at the level of effort he put forth last game compared to this game. Now look at this game, where he succumbed to defeatism after one vote on him, stating that he had nothing useful to put out. I'm calling bull.