Medaka Box Mafia - Night 4

[SB]

Serela: was there really a reason to test it?

[Conqueror]

I don't think Serela is the right way to go.

Lemme do this first before finishing the rest of my post.

##Unvote
##Vote: Shadoweh

[Serela]

Serela: was there really a reason to test it?

It wasn't very important to test it, but suffice it to say that there was little reason for me not to.

[NekoNekoRex]

To be honest i'm not sure whom i really want to vote for atm. Maybe Zak, maybe Serela. Maybe even Conq. Still i'll be around the deadline and i guess i'll vote then.
##Vote Serela for now.

:I
"After several hours I've concluded I don't like these people for ungiven reasons and maybe I'll vote for one of them
##Vote: Random pick"

[SB]

I highly doubt you have a completely useless day ability.

[NekoNekoRex]

I really want to vote someone else but CF7 is just not giving me good reasons to.

I'm still rereading past #180

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Votecount
CF7 (4): NekoNekoRex, Shadoweh, BT, Kingault
Serela (3): Bardiche, Zakeri, CF7
Sky Paladin (2): Sacchi Hikaru, Serela
NekoNekoRex (1): SB
BT (1): DrRawr
Kingault (1): Sky Paladin
Zakeri (1): ActionDan
Shadoweh (1): Conqueror
Dr Rawr (0):
ActionDan (0):
SB (0):
Sacchi Hikaru (0):
Conqueror (0):
Bardiche (0):

Not voting:
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

You have ~15.3 hours remaining.

[NekoNekoRex]

SB have you just been voteparking on me all day

[NekoNekoRex]

but his opionion on Zak feels like it's using the wrong reasons, like what does "pushes it a bit while not being hyperagressive" even mean, is he even addressing the cases on Zak here and what's he doing if he isn't?

RE: Zak, I'm mostly not seeing the scum intent, hence why I'm not voting him. If there is scum intent, my Gut is saying "no" on him,
Read on him hasn't really changed since yesterday.

[ActionDan]

Hmmm you know zaks three suspects would be my next 3 to suspect.

Will read soon

[BT]

RE: Zak, I'm mostly not seeing the scum intent, hence why I'm not voting him. If there is scum intent, my Gut is saying "no" on him,
Read on him hasn't really changed since yesterday.

Yeah, yeah, but what bothers me is how you went to explain it. Like, for instance, I think he's town for a super agreeable #165. Your reasons didn't feel sincere, I guess? I might be looking into it too hard but that's what I meant, anyway.

[Conqueror]

In response to SB, yeah, I was really more questioning Zak about his vote since I didn't like his apparent reasoning behind it. I feel slightly better about Zak after his more recent post (although I don't think the Serela vote is productive).

As for who I think is scum, that's a little harder. I hate D1. Right now I'm fishing in the general pool of Shadoweh, BT, Sky, maybe Kingault.

Bard is posting like he's a one-track Serela lyncher and it's hard to figure out whether he's just picking on Serela just because. Bard, even if Serela is scum he's not the only one, and in any case I think your RAGE tunnel vision reads a little over the top. What do you think about other people?

Yeah mmm the most I came up with from this read-through is a bunch of townreads. Just makes me want to stay on CF7. He's still showing a lack of initiative and "rawr is town now, kingault is scum" came way too easily like he was just trying to reach a read quota.

Not sure what this "read quota" is supposed to mean. If he were really pushing a Kingault scum it would make sense for him to vote him, right?
I'd ask BT about the bunch of townreads given that the rest of the post mentions reasons to look at me, NNR, Bard, Sacchi, Dan, and rawr (and in a later post Serela). So I'd want to know who these townreads are and also, presumably that would mean you have townreads on people like Sky, and Zak, among other people, so some elaboration would be nice instead of a blanket statement.
Also, explain this:

(didn't feel like he read some of the CF7 cases, and NNR's vote on SkyPaladin was unique enough)

NNR's vote on Sky_Paladin was an RVS vote so I have no idea what it has to do with anything. Which CF7 cases did you think I didn't read. This reads like lazy surface reasoning.

I think part of why I think BT looks mildly scummy is probably just because I disagree with so many of his reads. Also that he's pushing a CF7 scum (who has been known to be lynchbait as town) over say me, NNR, or Bard. I mostly want BT to elaborate on some stuff.

I'm not sure whether Kingault's reaction is scum or town, but either way I want him to come in and post. Defeatism is never good. Why don't you try posting like you did last game?

Next post will be on Shadoweh.

[Conqueror]

You are being a lazy little butt and apparently need reminding that I will blast you off at the speed of light if you think you can just sit on me all day and leave. I rolled the dice and you're getting remarkably sane and paying attention Shadoweh this game. (That goes to Conq too.)

Active Shadoweh isn't going to be able to post for a few more hours to look in depth at CF7, but Kingault's vote kind of makes me sick to my stomach being here. <_<

See SB? This isn't playstyle. I looked back before asserting this is the only thing CF7's said, and I've decided this is still unacceptable. This explanation for how Rawr is weird is seriously lacking the step that makes Weird = Scummy. Rawr is rolespecing, and this is scummy because...? It's the kind of case I would expect ScumSerela to make actually. I'm not done reading but I just saw CF7 post so I'm going to put this down for him to respond to while continuing.

O_o you do realize you're still voting for Rawr, right. I don't get where anyone's town reads on CF7 are coming from. Compared to his righteous anger in the previous game under the same situation, his response here has been downright anemic. I could fall asleep from the apathy.

Mostly this progression of posts, actually. The statement that CF7's posts are unacceptable feels more like admonishing someone for playing terribly than being confident he's scum, picking on his reasoning for even though CF7 stated outright in the quote Shadoweh quoted that it was gut. Chiding him for not being angry enough isn't reasoning that works because people aren't always angry in the same situations. So Shadoweh, why don't you get where anyone's town reads are coming from? Why is he scum and not fumbling town?

There's also minor stuff like going from "Kingault's vote makes me sick" to "Kingault could be town  :derp: :derp: :derp:" (presumably, that little joke of hers was so vague I don't know what it was referring to) and the fact I usually read her as town and I'm not getting that here. Feels like she's parking on CF7 for the hell of it, or because she can, rather.

[Conqueror]

To be honest i'm not sure whom i really want to vote for atm. Maybe Zak, maybe Serela. Maybe even Conq. Still i'll be around the deadline and i guess i'll vote then.
##Vote Serela for now.

For CF7, since it would help your case lot if you posted beyond the bare minimum you're posting now.
Why these three?

[BT]

<snip>
Not sure what this "read quota" is supposed to mean. If he were really pushing a Kingault scum it would make sense for him to vote him, right?
I'd ask BT about the bunch of townreads given that the rest of the post mentions reasons to look at me, NNR, Bard, Sacchi, Dan, and rawr (and in a later post Serela). So I'd want to know who these townreads are and also, presumably that would mean you have townreads on people like Sky, and Zak, among other people, so some elaboration would be nice instead of a blanket statement.
Also, explain this:

<snip>
NNR's vote on Sky_Paladin was an RVS vote so I have no idea what it has to do with anything. Which CF7 cases did you think I didn't read. This reads like lazy surface reasoning.

I think part of why I think BT looks mildly scummy is probably just because I disagree with so many of his reads. Also that he's pushing a CF7 scum (who has been known to be lynchbait as town) over say me, NNR, or Bard. I mostly want BT to elaborate on some stuff.

Read quota in the sense that he felt obligated to share some reads. The fact that he proceeded to do nothing with said reads supports the notion that his priority was to get those reads out there and not other things.

I mentioned townreads because I felt like I wouldn't have a lot of scumreads to talk about, except I toughed it anyway. Most of the posters felt town to me, and in a sense, so did you and NNR, but out of the bunch I'd look at you guys first. Shadoweh and Kingault are weak gut reads, but Zak's thoughts mirrored my own exactly when I was reading #165, even to the detail of thinking SkyPaladin was scum but then reconsidering. In fact, I think SkyPaladin is town, because stuff like his meta-analysis of Dan just comes off as genuine.

NNR's vote originated from "rolefishing" so of course it was unique. You questioned why he voted CF7 in particular. That's why.
I felt like your take on CF7 would have been different if you tried reading what people like me said about how he was lacking initiative. You didn't address that at all, which is why I think that. The whole "this is how he acts" thing isn't elaborated on either, which doesn't help when you didn't address what people were saying.

My read on CF7 is way more solid.

CUT: Gotta read 'em.

[Conqueror]

Alright, I see where you're coming from more now.

The fact that he proceeded to do nothing with said reads supports the notion that his priority was to get those reads out there and not other things.

See, I half agree with this, except that he didn't even do anything with those fake reads. As in, if he were scum, the optimal move would be to push on those reads, just like the optimal town move, right? I feel like the only real conclusion I can make from that is that he's not playing well. On the flip side, this doesn't mean he's town, so I'm going to waffle like a Serela once again and I'm waiting for how he responds.

I felt like your take on CF7 would have been different if you tried reading what people like me said about how he was lacking initiative. You didn't address that at all, which is why I think that. The whole "this is how he acts" thing isn't elaborated on either, which doesn't help when you didn't address what people were saying.

I read them all, and they felt pretty inconvincing imo. I can agree on CF7 lacking initiative but the thing is, few people really have initiative at that stage in the game.

[Conqueror]

Or rather, what I'm trying to say is.

It's more likely that scum would put down a snap vote like that.

I don't think this is true. It really depends on the player.

[Conqueror]

Also on reviewing Sky I realized I don't really want to vote for him. I dislike the snap Kingault vote but Kingault's vote, was in all honestly, pretty bad.

[BT]

I'm tempted to respond to the Shadoweh case but I'll wait for Shadoweh to reply to the Shadoweh case instead. If you're town, uh, you're wrong. (Best response of 2014.)

Alright, I see where you're coming from more now.
See, I half agree with this, except that he didn't even do anything with those fake reads. As in, if he were scum, the optimal move would be to push on those reads, just like the optimal town move, right? I feel like the only real conclusion I can make from that is that he's not playing well. On the flip side, this doesn't mean he's town, so I'm going to waffle like a Serela once again and I'm waiting for how he responds.
I read them all, and they felt pretty inconvincing imo. I can agree on CF7 lacking initiative but the thing is, few people really have initiative at that stage in the game.

See, talking about optimal moves is a trap, but even then, why wouldn't he act according to his reads as town? He just agreed to townread someone he'd thought was "weird" for no given reason (arguably because everyone was doing it), then name someone as suspicious for the easiest reason ever, and did nothing else, leaving no proof that he actually thinks what he posts. Are you claiming that's null?

When I say "initiative", I mean the most basic things imaginable. He would have just sat there defending himself if not for someone prodding him. He's not showing any original scumhunting, with the rawr thing still being unsubstantiated. He's playing to scum's wincon by doing nothing, not town's.

[Conqueror]

Speaking of initiative, I think that's part of what I find off about Shadoweh. Sure, Shadoweh voteparks people as town, but iirc she doesn't hound someone like this for all of D1 (correct me if I'm wrong Shadoweh!) Usually it's near the later parts of the game.

[BT]

Speaking of initiative, I think that's part of what I find off about Shadoweh. Sure, Shadoweh voteparks people as town, but iirc she doesn't hound someone like this for all of D1 (correct me if I'm wrong Shadoweh!) Usually it's near the later parts of the game.

I think it happened before, and even then, it's pretty understandable imo. She isn't the only one guilty of this.

[Conqueror]

I'm tempted to respond to the Shadoweh case but I'll wait for Shadoweh to reply to the Shadoweh case instead. If you're town, uh, you're wrong. (Best response of 2014.)

Did you read Shadoweh as scum in her most recent scum game?

See, talking about optimal moves is a trap, but even then, why wouldn't he act according to his reads as town? He just agreed to townread someone he'd thought was "weird" for no given reason (arguably because everyone was doing it), then name someone as suspicious for the easiest reason ever, and did nothing else, leaving no proof that he actually thinks what he posts. Are you claiming that's null?

When I say "initiative", I mean the most basic things imaginable. He would have just sat there defending himself if not for someone prodding him. He's not showing any original scumhunting, with the rawr thing still being unsubstantiated. He's playing to scum's wincon by doing nothing, not town's.

Yes, I'm claiming it's null given that he didn't even push that person he named as suspicious for the easiest reason ever. It's scummy in the sense that it's bad play, but see below. Consistency and clarity in thought doesn't always go in hand with a town role pm.

Re: playing to scum's wincon, I've always said there are more scum than mafia.

Now that you brought it up though, when CF7 gets back it'd be nice to know why he switched to town!rawr.

[Serela]

I almost want to believe in Conq's case on Shadoweh because it'd mean I caught her as scum from nigh-rvs shenanigans.

CF7's latest post really makes me less resistant to his lynch, despite what I was saying earlier. I almost feel bad for this.

Cut. Conq, the issue is also Sky's lack of anything else that isn't empty. (I got cut a lot more after this but whatever)

...yeah I reread the thread several times, some of the times with stuff in the last few wallposts on this page in mind, but I can't really provide any new insight that isn't waffles. SB kind of bothers me and I was probably silly when I talked about BT.

[Conqueror]

I think it happened before, and even then, it's pretty understandable imo. She isn't the only one guilty of this.

I know. But like I said, I can usually get a town read on Shadoweh when she's town (even when the rest of the game is scumreading her). The fact that I haven't gotten that this game (SHADOWEH YOU SAID THERE WOULD BE MINDLINKING, YOU LIED TO ME) is a personal alarm bell for me.

[BT]

<snip>
Did you read Shadoweh as scum in her most recent scum game?

<snip>
Yes, I'm claiming it's null given that he didn't even push that person he named as suspicious for the easiest reason ever. It's scummy in the sense that it's bad play, but see below. Consistency and clarity in thought doesn't always go in hand with a town role pm.

Re: playing to scum's wincon, I've always said there are more scum than mafia.

Now that you brought it up though, when CF7 gets back it'd be nice to know why he switched to town!rawr.

When even was her last scum game? Holy War? I totally caught her with the Serelas.

Okay, let's try a different approach. The fact he didn't vote Kingault isn't even one of the points I brought up. I think my interpretation of his actions is correct regardless of alignment. Yes, townies can totally do all of what he did here, but I just don't think that's the case. There's no tiny glimmer of content I can point at that proves he's trying to play the game. I'm not sure what point I'm making here (should be a few split points thus far), but I struggle to see how all this is null. You said this is his usual behavior. Is it? I remember one town game where I thought he was scum early on for making things up, but he was town, and he was, at the very least, doing something. Ugh I'm struggling with the words. I'll try this again later.

I know. But like I said, I can usually get a town read on Shadoweh when she's town (even when the rest of the game is scumreading her). The fact that I haven't gotten that this game (SHADOWEH YOU SAID THERE WOULD BE MINDLINKING, YOU LIED TO ME) is a personal alarm bell for me.

I'll just wait for Shadoweh to show up then.

[Sky_Paladin]

Two pages since I was last here?  Excellent. 

Basically I evaluate my votes like this:  I vote for the person who is most scummy.  Therefore if that player goes down in my scum opinion, or they are overtaken by a more scummy person, I'll switch my vote.

Kingault's vote on CF7 was really bad so I voted him for it.  But, uh, King has had exactly three non-content post one-liner's since then, and that was nearly 24 hours ago.  Post 1, post 2, post 3.

I see the eternal love dance between Bardiche and Serela continues.  Serela's panic Bow Down to 'confirm' ascetic was really pointless, if you had done it on a non-ascetic then maybe you could have verified yourself.  What were you thinking?  I'm genuinely curious, because right now it looks like a fake action to get out of Bard's sights.  Which won't work, by the way.  He can't resist those delicious waffles you bake up. 

I'm seeing...I guess, I think BT is throwing out a lot of WIFOMing over the CF7 situation.  Conq is kind of playing back with it but the situation is so ludicrous to me.  BT is going 'if he was scum...xyz' 'optimal plays xyz'.  Look.  As soon as you try to guess what somebody would do 'if they are scum', you're doing wifom.  #1 You don't know if they are scum #2 if they are scum, you dont know if they are making an optimal play because you don't know their situation and #3 even people with all the information sometimes make sub optimal decisions.  Out of this debate, I consider Conq 'winning/least scummy'. 

I think there is some reason for people to vote CF7 this game (last game I defended him because there was no case); I just think Kingault's reason was truly awful and he's done literally nothing to either improve his vote or defend his current vote. 

Therefore, I'm going to keep my vote on Kingault. 

Hikari, I want to see some better analysis from you.  You basically posted a rehash of other people's opinions and then magically landed a vote on me 'because Kingaults vote was bad'.  That's not a reason to vote.  Especially since you are condemning King as a beginner, you need to set yourself at a higher level. 

SB - I consider you a reasonably intelligent and savvy player and I hold you in a high regard.  So for you to misread your role pm is kind of odd. 

[Bardiche]

I don't even what Serela is doing.

Ooookay looks like time is short and I honestly do not like turning Day 1 into "lynch the newbie", so I hope at least one of you can give a cogent case for why CF7 is a good lynch for the day.

Gonna take some time to re-read Shadoweh and Sky Paladin, and maybe SB for voteparking NNR. Who's like a total bro, I don't get why you'd votepark him. Unless you want to say he's tryhard scum but that seems ridiculous.

[SB]

SB have you just been voteparking on me all day

pretty much

gonna speed iso some people i guess.

[Bardiche]

I see the eternal love dance between Bardiche and Serela continues.  Serela's panic Bow Down to 'confirm' ascetic was really pointless, if you had done it on a non-ascetic then maybe you could have verified yourself.  What were you thinking?  I'm genuinely curious, because right now it looks like a fake action to get out of Bard's sights.  Which won't work, by the way.  He can't resist those delicious waffles you bake up. 

Are you cheerleading me to stay on Serela? Like, seriously, man? Serela's attempted action is null to me because uuuh, unless there's some MAGICAL value in the fact that Serela has a role () it's not indicative of alignment at all and trying to use one to confirm BT is an ascetic is both Pro-Town and Pro-Scum depending on PoV so it doesn't do anything but generate a Null.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Hikari, I want to see some better analysis from you.  You basically posted a rehash of other people's opinions and then magically landed a vote on me 'because Kingaults vote was bad'.  That's not a reason to vote.  Especially since you are condemning King as a beginner, you need to set yourself at a higher level.

I voted for you because, again, I felt it was just way too opportunistic on your part to immediately vote Kingault, and I still do.

I'm not giving him a beginner pass however, mostly because I'm also a beginner and I'm trying my darnest, while he has pretty much admitted to not even be trying. His posts get worse by the minute, but the problem I feel is that lynching him would be mostly a Policy Lynch, since I do not feel him to be scummy (nor townie, for the record).

I could say the same thing about CF7 since the only problem I have with him right now is "his posts are way too half-assed", again, imo, lynching him would just be a Policy Lynch which, as far as I understand it, should be avoided at all costs since that's hunting newbies, not scum.

But I'm gonna be doing a reread on BT/SB because I feel like I've given them too little attention in this game.