Omerta - Town of Mafia (Game over Scum wins)

[ActionDan]

In going to be busy for the next 3 hours so my position is final

[Sky_Paladin]

I think CF7 is town.  I think there is no case on him and he just attracted momentum and scum opportunity votes. 

I am not sold on Raikaria.  I think Bardiche made a good enough case that I voted and Raikaria has not really redeemed himself in my eyes.  I just think the case on you (Mitsuki) is better. 

If I am wrong about Mitsuki, I would consider PX instead. 

I think CF7 and PX should vote for Mitsuki; and any player who queried Mitsuki's non-content posts (Dan and Serela iirc) should consider swapping over too. 

On an unrelated note:  Bardiche, sorry for misidentifying you as a woman. 

This is probably my last check in for this phase.  I've said all I wanted to.  Anybody who is sitting on the fence, please review my case on Mitsuki, and then review the (nonexistent) case on CF7, and make your call. 

[WHMZakeri]

Got three hours and no reason to change my vote.
I should still read the rest of the game, though.

[Cheez8]

I have a brilliant case.  It's on cheez.  It's brilliance lays in its simplicity.

Please try harder. It's a little insulting that you think my play is so scummy all you have to do is say "cheez was scummy on page 3" for six people to be convinced. Also, I still believe that shoddy case on NNR holds a little bit of water, but it's such an ED1 case I'm not considering it right now.

CF7 (5): Serela, Schezo, O4rfish, Zakeri, Mitsuki
O4rfish (1): CF7
Sky Paladin (1): Bardiche
Mitsuki (1): Sky Paladin
Cheez (1): Action Dan
Schezo (1): Nekonekorex
Zakeri (1): PX
PX (1): Raikaria

...did I really just wake up to this votecount being real?

Well, I thought more. Zak is town, I'm wavering a bit on CF7, PX's post doesn't really instill confidence and it's the one post he's actually made (although at first I thought it was ActionDan posting that so I could have been making that mistake for a while), and Mitsuki's posts are enough that I would maybe vote for her. Paladin... I have no idea about him.

Basically at this point my vote priorities have shifted to something similar to PX>CF7>O4rfish>Mitsuki>NNR>Paladin and CF7 is close enough to the top that, sure, I'm fine with lynching him.

##Vote: CF7

[Cheez8]

Please try harder. It's a little insulting that you think my play is so scummy all you have to do is say "cheez was scummy on page 3" for six people to be convinced.

Also I like being able to try to defend myself and it's hard when the case is as unclear as "was scummy earlier"

[Mitsuki]

What do you think of this case where PX rants about O4rfish and then votes Zakeri for

It seemed bad, but I haven't read it properly.

[Cheez8]

Actually
##Unvote
##Vote: PX
because I'm so convinced about him that I'd rather try to get a PX lynch built up than ensure CF7 is lynched even though I don't trust him very much either

[CF7]

-Town has to lynch. If there is no majority at the end of the day then to one with the most votes will get lynched, a tie will result in a random lynch of one of them.

Well, considering this part, i'll be lynched anyway.

[WHMZakeri]

so as far as I can see it, the two major wagons of the day are "CF7" and "Oh god, please, anyone but CF7".

See Serela's vote and Zakeri's vote
They're quoting different parts of the same damn post.

The last two games, Serela has been dangerously competent and I don't like it. 

Also [The post where Serela is acting competent this game] kind of looks weird.

Yes, we're quoting different parts of the same point he was making, and so?

"And the one who has the most to gain?" What exactly do I gain from spearheading the case on CF7? Since you're assuming it's not a dead scum role.
I've already brought attention to the fact that I forgot to bring up why I thought CF7 was scum, which is why I went out of my way to describe why I thought CF7 was scum. I've even been discussing the case on CF7 and seeing other people's reasons that I've actively agreed to even change my mind for.

It seems that a lot of your complaints about my playstyle come from ignoring everything I said and did from post 166 and onwards. It's fair when defending CF7 from Oarfish's case made in 162 because it hadn't happened yet but most of that beef seems to be against Oarfish. So why not push him? What exactly do you gain from spearheading the case against me?

I don't have an argument for Dan's case on Cheez8 but it would help if he provided a link to Cheez's case on NNR so we could at least go back to recheck how the case buildup actually reads rather than just taking his word for it.

[WHMZakeri]

saying the post is on "Page 3" doesn't help me because Oarfish was on page 7 shortly after discussing that, and I'm only on page 5 right now.

[Cheez8]

I can dream. Also, there's two hours left and a couple others have said they'd maybe lynch PX too, so who knows?

Also I just realized I didn't actually make a case against PX but 1) it's been made and 2) I'll see if I can do it anyway

PX has basically done nothing aside from have about three minor opinions all day until that one post of his where he talks at length about the confusing CF7 mess which is probably, at this point, the easiest thing to misinterpret and also the thing people are least likely to try to fact-check for themselves (based on my own experience of not wanting to fact-check things regarding CF7 that don't have quotes in them already, at least.) In summary I think he says something like "CF7 isn't scummy and the whole scumteam is pretending he is" but CF7 actually DOES look bad and Zak, who he votes for, is one of the only townreads I have so far. It was supported with something like "Zak didn't actually say why CF7 is scummy" except I'm pretty sure, at the very least, he clarified and found support for the reason O4rfish gave that I didn't understand at first.

Other people have probably made better PX cases but this is my understanding of the situation.

[Cheez8]

Zak: Here you go.

It's not really a case so much as a thing that I noticed early on that looked scummy, along with the reasons why I thought it looked scummy. I don't really think much more can be expected from ED1 though and I also don't think that simply being something from ED1 prevents something scummy from being taken seriously.

[CF7]

Cheez, can you clarify why i DO look bad? Because you didn't give your reasoning when you voted for me. Then you just decided to start pushing for PX.

[NekoNekoRex]

I'm here

making sense of things in the morning is hard.

[Sky_Paladin]

CF7 I wish you would actually defend yourself.  Or at least claim, geez. 

Here's my last throw of the dice for today. 

Here's the case on CF7, as posted by Serela.  As near as I can make it out, the vote is because of a perceived bad play rather than a scummy play by CF7.  I think this vote is reasonable at this stage of the game but it is becoming harder to defend as time goes on. 

Schezo votes for CF7 in agreement with Serela and to get more content from CF7.  Strategically it's probably a good call.  I think this vote is reasonable and with the lack of CF7 defending himself is becoming more credible. 

Here is where CF7 gets himself in trouble, by voting for Zak.  His reason for the vote is because Zak's vote on me was because of my RVS vote and generally poor reasoning.  Shortly after, NNR pings Oarfish for doing nothing all game, and then he posts his first content post of the game and votes for CF7.  His case ultimately hinges on that 'providing a reason for RVS vote means it is not RVS', but it was actually my vote he is referring to, and the vote and the reason were both jokes.  Under examination there's no concrete reason for this vote.  Oarfish's vote is scummy. 

Anyway, this starts the chain off.  Zak inevitably votes for CF7 (who has since switched to Oarfish).  Mitsuki inexplicably defends all three of them and finally votes CF7 because she consolidated onto a Sky_Wagon that did not eventuate; and then had to find a better place to park her vote. 

Basically I think Mituski/Zak/Oarfish are never gonna vote for anybody but CF7.  To be fair, maybe it's because CF7 is scum and they are on to the right target.  Three minds are better than one after all.  But I can't help but feel the way it happened and how the three seem to be working together belies an ulterior motive. 

Anyway, the only two people on that wagon that have an opinion that I'm interested in right now are Schezo and Serela.  Those two have the only votes I consider plausible. 

I'm not going to vote for PX at this stage.  The main case so far has been that he was afk, but ActionDan was also afk and so was Schezo.  The main case on PX is from Mitsuki, who never made a case and abandoned her vote to consolidate at 27 hour mark on to me, then abandoned her vote to opportunity vote CF7.  Since I'm considering scum!Mitsuki, I can't in good conscience vote for her target. 

I'm not going to vote for Cheez because the case is made by a rambling ActionDan who arbitrarily cleared miscellaneous players and doesn't outline any case that I can follow.  Also in my opinion Dan has a truly awful record in town clears so I'm just gonna ignore him. 

TL;DR
I don't see a case being made against CF7.  Serela voted early and Schezo sheeped it.  Oarfish/Zak voted CF7 because he voted them/vice versa.  Mitsuki voted CF7 after defending him, so...

[WHMZakeri]

Yeah that's not so much a "Shoddy attempt to justify a case" and it is "Clarifying an opinion for somebody who asked for it."

There is better stuff to lynch on.

I want to encourage people to switch their votes to PX if they don't think CF7 deserves the lynch. I would much rather see competing wagons than one wagon and a bunch of refusals to wagon.

[O4rfish]

CF7 I wish you would actually defend yourself.  Or at least claim, geez. 

This is c9++, so I don't see how a claim would do anything.
Also that votecount is pretty silly.

[Sky_Paladin]

I want to encourage people to switch their votes to PX if they don't think CF7 deserves the lynch

How about, let's not lynch a player who is semi-afk when we have a much more pressing issue of the alignment of CF7 versus Mitsuki, Oarfish and yourself?

What do you think about my Mitsuki case?  You and Oarfish have, to my knowledge, pretty much ignored it. 

Do you think she has no case to answer? 

[Cheez8]

Cheez, can you clarify why i DO look bad? Because you didn't give your reasoning when you voted for me. Then you just decided to start pushing for PX.

I think it was mostly because I read this post from O4rfish and the following posts from Zak that explained it, and went "Oh wow is that true? If it is, CF7 really isn't looking too good right about now."

I still have yet to determine how true it is since I'm both lazy and easily confusable, but because of the way Zak's posts were written as if they were realizing something, I thought it was probably true and it was a good enough reason to want to vote for you. I'm pushing for PX now because on top of never looking like he was town, he defended you with a post that I'm pretty sure misrepresents several parts of the fiasco and tries to make the one person I'm most convinced is town look like scum (again, through misrepresentation (or misunderstanding but one can easily be passed off as the other and I'm pretty sure PX knew what was really going on for whatever reason))

[Serela]

Hour and 37 minutes left (although I guess we don't have to hammer anyway), just finished skimming the thread after waking up. Ooof, considering I never even got to properly parse what happened most of yesterday this is a little daunting >> At least I have a little actual free time before work today, and a coherent thought process unlike being superexhausted last night.

If there's anything specific you want me to comment on you better ask, since I'm probably only going to give light addressing to one or two important things otherwise due to time. Gonna figure out what the votes are at and then skim CF7 to make sure I'm still okay with the lynch.

[WHMZakeri]

Sky_Pal's recent pleas only make sense if He's town or if he, PX, and CF7 are scum together. There are other possibilities but they're not worth looking into until the night/day after

I wouldn't say PX is semi-afk as he is just hiding out and trying to overinflate weak cases and then going back into hiding. Still I can understand the reasoning that you would rather bag information than shooting in the dark.

I'm looking over your Mitsuki case right now.

[Serela]

Some of these posts I'm trying to read, and posts they're linking to as evidence, are so confusing to read I don't even. If I switched onto PX it'd be 4 vs. 3 in favor of CF7 being lynched, but I don't even have the time to start properly understanding what's going on in PX's posts/the posts it's using.

And then I reread CF7 instead and arguments over what is and isn't RVS and what that would mean in terms of alignments aggahghaghh ;_;

Most of CF7's play I already addressed and still stands, the other part is a case against newbie!o@rfish which is probably null even if I don't have time to mull that over or not right now. I'm fine enough with continuing on with his lynch that I wouldn't rather try to force things over onto lynching PX at the last minute.

[O4rfish]

Let's assume there are three possibilities.
1 We're scum working together, and Skypal is town and realized this.
2 We're not scum, but Skypal honestly thinks we are.
3 We're not scum, but Skypal is scum.
(4 Skypal is scum along with one or more of us, lol)

Which do you think is more likely? I'd like to point out that the three people he accuses are all on one wagon.

[CF7]

CF7 I wish you would actually defend yourself.  Or at least claim, geez. 

I've said everything i could to defend myself. That somehow made more people to vote for me. As for my claim... Do you like ice cream? Vanilla flavored?

[Raikaria]

I'll be honest I'm not fully in support of the CF7 wagon either. I have minor misgivings about this post:

Tbh, i don't like Schezo's posts. Pretty much zero actual content. RVS vote, another RVS vote, and jump-vote on Serela.
##Vote Schezo

But other than that and his empty unvote in #57 [More on that in a second] nothing strikes me as awfully scummy. That said, nothing he's done seems awfully town. I would much rather see a PX lynch.

In other news, while reading CF7 I can answer an earlier question! I found where the suggestion of a quicklynch cropped up before which set me off on Paranoia street!

It was CF7's #57

I knew someone mentioned it.

[Raikaria]

And how many people is that now that have expressed misgivings about PX's 'case'? I know Mitsuki and Serela have now. I'm sure we can swap to a PX majority at this point. Both are not good, but PX IMO is worse.

[Serela]

whether or not skypaladin is actually calling those 3 the scumteam and whether or not O@rfish is or isn't scum, assuming people are scum based on loose interactions when you don't actually know if any of them are really scum would be Bad

anyway gtg get ready for work

cut by rofl raikaria

cut again, I mostly just said I didn't have the time to dig through the points because they were a little confusing and because the posts it linked to were significantly more confusing >> Then again maybe that in itself is bad, but me switching to PX would be a pretty impulsive decision with little justification given

[WHMZakeri]

@Oarfish, personally 2 and 4 are my top picks, and in that order.

The case on Mitsuki is actually super well-thought out. the accusations of empty content posting and stalling are supported by evidence, and are good supplemental points. It also bulletpoints the main parts of the case he's making, and I feel like Mitsuki does own explanations for vote suppressing and the nature of his clears, since the way Sky demonstrates how Mitsuki clears people suggests that Mitsuki is doing that scum thing where you semi-clear a lot of townies simply because you know they're town to begin with.

If Mitsuki does turn out to be scum, I think that clears Me, Oarfish, Raikaria, and suggests that CF7 and Sky may both be town as well.

[NekoNekoRex]

I'm still trying to make sense of this last page, but imo nothing has changed on my opinions thus far. PX is still trash and his vote sux.

I'm kind of passively voting CF7 right now and I still think he's worse, but I wouldn't oppose a PX lynch either.

[NekoNekoRex]

My main problem is that CF7's vote on Oarfish comes off as a giant overreaction and comes off as OMGUS. IMO it was CF7's reaction that brought the votes on him, not Oarfish's post.
Since then he hasn't really gotten over the attitude, either, which isn't doing him favors. It reads like scum trying to deflect suspicion and getting mad because 'they were caught' (ironically CF7 posted as much that he was 'caught scum').