Author Topic: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode  (Read 13213 times)

cuc

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Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« on: January 09, 2014, 02:02:30 AM »
Tokyo Otaku Mode, which apparently is an upstart English site for otaku culture run by Japanese, has posted a long interview with ZUN as part of their special feature on Touhou Project. (Thanks, xJeePx!)

http://otakumode.com/news/52adc1a3f21de80b0e000232/Interview-with-Touhou-Project-Founder-and-Creator-ZUN-Part-1
http://otakumode.com/news/52ae46f5ff943d707900009d/Interview-with-Touhou-Project-Founder-and-Creator-ZUN-Part-2
http://otakumode.com/news/52ae477434d3d66a7900008f/Interview-with-Touhou-Project-Founder-and-Creator-ZUN-Part-3

EDIT: As N-Forza said, keep in mind this interview was conducted in the summer of 2013, so its contents are not the most up-to-date.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 10:23:59 AM by cuc »
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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 02:19:27 AM »
I have just started this but this is the conversation I've wanted someone to have with ZUN. Thanks for posting this.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

cuc

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 02:22:23 AM »
We should thank xJeePx. He discovered it. And I forgot to mention that in the OP at first.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 02:23:56 AM by cuc »
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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 05:29:22 AM »
I was about to post links to this in that other thread too when I discovered this two days ago, but I was checking to see if it was posted yet or not somewhere else first.

I really agree with what ZUN says in this as well. It's disappointing what he says at the end about Steam. That's really too bad, in my opinion, but it can't be helped.
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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 07:19:20 AM »
Well, the interview date was apparently a few months ago, so this was before Greenlight really took off, not to mention AWA, so maybe his mind's changed a bit.

cuc

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 01:08:45 PM »
Surprisingly, due to their newness, it takes no effort to look into this site. They started as a Facebook page, and seem to have expanded into a news site / web store after gaining VC investments. What matters is, their staff seem to be all Japanese, that explains the Japanesy English their articles are written in.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 01:14:04 PM by cuc »
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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 05:32:01 PM »
All I knew is that they'd put "20 Hot Anime Girls"-type stuff on my Facebook because of my friends that liked them. I wasn't expecting anything legitimate, but this is a neat interview.

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 12:49:29 AM »
Yay~! I'm happy to know ZUN also prefers older, arcade-style games over new ones. I understand very well what he means by "sense of achievement" upon finishing 'em.


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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 02:26:46 PM »
I kind of got struck back into reality when I read ZUN's elobrate answer on the Steam question. Not particulary on Touhou being on stream, but the difficulty artists and developers have when expanding abroad. His mention of foreign style vs Japanese is a major issue for a lot of people.
Quote from: Interview with ZUN part 3
ZUN: The grammar of the game hasn?t been rearranged for a foreign audience. I think that?s a good thing. Manga is accepted in the same way. American comics and Japanese manga are completely different, aren?t they? For example, I don?t think a Japanese manga artist has been successful by trying to incorporate American comic styles into their own style to sell in America. But I feel that with games, you can see that they?re developed to be sold in other countries right away. Ultimately, that could be because commercial games have to sell.
Doujin games have some freedom in that area. Because of that, there is diversity in game content. You do what you want to do. Of course, selling is great, but not everyone is necessarily making games for that reason. Doing something you want to do takes priority over making a profit. Which is why doujin games are fun. Of course, it?s not that money is unnecessary. It?s artistic to say you don?t need money, but the doujin style is to say that if you like it, please pay. Doujin games are the counterpoint to commercial games, so its stance is that you can make interesting games even without money.

FLASH

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 10:37:39 PM »
Very interesting interview thanks for posting!
I like and agree with a lot of things ZUN said about gaming and the gaming industry here.

I especially found this comment very interesting:
"When I say ?Japanese style,? I don?t mean the kind of associations people in other places have of Japan, but rather, I mean that it?s a game made by someone in Japan for people in Japan. I think that a game like that will definitely come across as something exotic to people in other countries."

I never tough of it that way but i think, is it possible that Jap fans and oversea fans doesn't like Touhou for the same reasons?
i know i like those games because of their unique personality and atmosphere, which is conveyed by a lot of elements (art style, music, gameplay, characters...); but are they really unique to a native Japanese then? or maybe unique in a different way? hum...


And what do you think he means by "no longer have the Data of earlier games"? is he saying he didn't keep the source code?! that whould be very unprofessionnal even from a Doujin developper... Always keep a backup, ZUN that's the golden rule dammit :-x
Even with that, why is it a problem to go on Steam? Can't he just give them the executables for buyers to then download from Valve's servers?

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 11:14:48 PM »
Very interesting interview thanks for posting!
I like and agree with a lot of things ZUN said about gaming and the gaming industry here.

I especially found this comment very interesting:
"When I say ?Japanese style,? I don?t mean the kind of associations people in other places have of Japan, but rather, I mean that it?s a game made by someone in Japan for people in Japan. I think that a game like that will definitely come across as something exotic to people in other countries."

I never tough of it that way but i think, is it possible that Jap fans and oversea fans doesn't like Touhou for the same reasons?
i know i like those games because of their unique personality and atmosphere, which is conveyed by a lot of elements (art style, music, gameplay, characters...); but are they really unique to a native Japanese then? or maybe unique in a different way? hum...
I think it might be the same for cowboy movies for us in the US, it just doesn't have the same connections for someone who lives outside the US.

Quote
And what do you think he means by "no longer have the Data of earlier games"? is he saying he didn't keep the source code?! that whould be very unprofessionnal even from a Doujin developper... Always keep a backup, ZUN that's the golden rule dammit :-x
Even with that, why is it a problem to go on Steam? Can't he just give them the executables for buyers to then download from Valve's servers?
Willing to bet he probably looked at those projects at a hobby thing that wasn't as important as we see em today. :) Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if valve wants programs that are compatible with the Windows platform.

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 11:47:09 PM »
I never tough of it that way but i think, is it possible that Jap fans and oversea fans doesn't like Touhou for the same reasons?
i know i like those games because of their unique personality and atmosphere, which is conveyed by a lot of elements (art style, music, gameplay, characters...); but are they really unique to a native Japanese then? or maybe unique in a different way? hum...

I like the games exactly because they're Japanese. And I mean REALLY Japanese... with shrine maidens, youkai, shinto religion... etc (everything that constitutes Japanese culture). I like games with this type of atmosphere, such as Muramasa the Demon Blade or KiKi KaiKai. I'm also quite the junkie for shmups, so it's only natural I became very fond of Touhou.

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 12:47:55 AM »
No better example of a Japanese game being westernized to appeal to western audiences and failing because of it than "Devil Kings"

Remove what makes your game unique and watch nobody like it.

Personally the only thing I find that fails in terms of west/east gaps is in Japanese Word play.
Without being able to dissect the words and know how they relate, the jokes are wasted on me.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 12:51:56 AM by Cadmas »

Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 12:57:05 AM »
No better example of a Japanese game being westernized to appeal to western audiences and failing because of it than "Devil Kings"

Remove what makes your game unique and watch nobody like it.

Personally the only thing I find that fails in terms of west/east gaps is in Japanese Word play.
Without being able to dissect the words and know how they relate, the jokes are wasted on me.
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Helepolis

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 02:36:08 PM »
Roughly guessing that:

Entire universe of touhou revolves around folklore, stories, references etc etc in relation to Japan and surrounding (Asia). I am not surprised that people have mixed thoughts whether to like touhou or not. I mean, how many of us actually started liking touhou for its references and reflections on ancient Japan and folklores? That is only something you learn and discover once you take a closer look at the game.

On the surface for many people, Touhou is a bullet hell featuring Japanese girls. Beneith the surface, there is music which is for some catching some not. Deeper down, there is an elaborate explanation about each game, character, location, incident. That alone is a work of art which is hard to present to the audience. If you're not interested, you're not interested. And it is (often) simple as that.

Majority of the fanbase like Touhou for its music and/or art anyway, no need to deny that.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 02:37:56 PM by Helepolis »

Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 10:45:20 PM »
how many of us actually started liking touhou for its references and reflections on ancient Japan and folklores? That is only something you learn and discover once you take a closer look at the game.

I actually thought that the stories and settings established in the games and books were really smart, and that ZUN's a better writer than most would credit him for (like you said, the majority of the fanbase finds the appeal in the game / music / doujin art). But of course, what little I've read were translations, so maybe his Japanese is really crap but his ideas are really interesting! But that's unlikely since he seems to be a legitimately intelligent guy.

Dude's stories are a series of Japanese fairy tales yo.

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2014, 09:09:08 AM »
I actually thought that the stories and settings established in the games and books were really smart,
Yes, but my point was: Did you figure this out after you played/discovered for period of time Touhou or did you beforehand did in-depth reading on what the universe of Touhou entails?

Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2014, 03:42:44 PM »
ZUN's writing is incredibly in-depth, complex, and filled with "genius bonus" all over the place (the translated Silent Sinner in Blue for example has like, a billion translator footnotes about all the references in there)

However, the vast majority of non-Japanese people (and honestly, even most Japanese people I imagine) probably wouldn't be able to catch that from the seemingly simple in-game stories.  A lot of the references, especially in a game where you aren't really in a mood to do something like stop and observe all the various nuances of that boss's clothes and realize all the symbolism in her jewelry and the way it's arranged, are of the "blink and you'll miss it" variety (or rather, "don't stop to smell the roses and you'll miss it" variety), and much of the in-game's storyline is "all there in the manual", too.

It's a bit better in regards to the mangas and short stories though, where the narrator (albeit sometimes an unreliable one) explains a lot (but not all) of the references and why things work the way they do. But I'm under the impression most people don't get into those parts of Touhou until later, and it still requires paying a lot of attention of you don't have wiki cliffnotes nearby or if you're reading in a rush (which is practically human nature to do)

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 04:05:36 AM »
One of the things I got from talking with him about localizing the games though is that he didn't seem to think translating them was that necessary to play the games. Either he's just humble about his story and settings and thinks the danmaku patterns and music speak for themselves, or he's just lazy lol

FLASH

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2014, 04:27:59 PM »
I think it's mostly that he whouldn't want an official translation to be done by anyone but himself.

In many interviews he said probably the thing he is the most pround of about his games (or touhou in general) is that he is able to make all of it by himself (admittedly with minor help from other circles and his wife, but very minor), and so that the games reflects his personality and are exactly the way he wants them to be.

I even recall he said in an interview that he generally avoid getting exposed to much touhou fanwork even tough he said he like it, because he doesn't want to get too influenced.

so i guess he doesn't mind fan translations because he knows people know it is not official and therefore may not reflect exactly his meaning; but if it's an official translation, he whouldn't want someone else to do it because that's a pretty important part of the game (the story and the character's personnalities, as well as the humor and references) that whouldn't be done by him anymore.

@ Forza:

You are right, he said that outright in part 3 of the interview :

"Since it?s a shooting game, having it in Japanese doesn?t create that much of a hurdle for the player."

he also was asked that very question by a korean fan at Comiket in 2009:

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Summary_Record_of_a_Chat_Between_ZUN_and_a_Korean_Touhou_Fan_at_Comiket76

if this interview is anything to go by, he apparently avoided the question (it says he answered by just a polite laugh) so i guess that's him saying: "i whould feel bad for letting someone else do the translation for me. tough 'im a little embarassed to admit it."
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:30:48 PM by FLASH »

Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2014, 05:49:09 PM »
It's true that pretty much all of the backstory in Touhou is deeply rooted in Japanese history and myths, but I don't think that's really an excuse to not release the games over here. Most people totally ignore the backstory when they first play the games, and simply enjoy them for what they are: danmaku shooters with colorful characters and great music. Plus, it can have the opposite effect. I was never interested in Japanese folklore before Touhou, but now I find myself deeply engrossed in it. I think instead of needing to know Japanese culture to indulge in Touhou, Touhou can actually help Western players understand Eastern culture better. Of course, if they choose to, because the entire point of the extended universe is to exist as side-material for the passionate fans to get into. So, I really think it'd be fine to localize Touhou here, because I doubt there's that much keeping players from enjoying it. Aside from it being a danmaku game anyways, which isn't a genre most people are used to over here.

Of course, if the localization was handled poorly, all bets are off. If any single thing was changed to "appeal to the Western audience", I'd simply prefer shipping the games from Japan and patching them. And I figure most others would do the same. So, I understand why ZUN is skeptical of letting others handle the localization.

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Re: Long interview with ZUN by Tokyo Otaku Mode
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2014, 08:53:02 PM »
Of course, if the localization was handled poorly, all bets are off. If any single thing was changed to "appeal to the Western audience", I'd simply prefer shipping the games from Japan and patching them. And I figure most others would do the same. So, I understand why ZUN is skeptical of letting others handle the localization.

Totally seconding this. I'd like most, if not everything intact. Just like on the fan translations.

Changing Touhou, which is a deep Japanese game into something to appeal to the Western audience would be silly, and would put me completely off. The game's name itself means "East" after all.

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