Justice Juice Mafia Thread I (NIGHT 3)

[Kilgamayan]

NNR PLEASE READ THIS AND RESPOND

Unrelated to the above: I want everyone that hasn't already to weigh in on the votecount thing I discussed. The tl;dr version is that, if one accepts NNR's statement about Mitsuki and myself as true, then Cheez has to be scum by the way the End of Day 2 wagons shook down.

[Cheez8]

Some thoughts on the game, since I seem to be running out of time to provide them.

I'm not too bothered by being lynched at this point. All I was focusing on this entire game was helping reveal the truth to the town. As a result, I kind of ignored how I appeared to the town. It would be nice if I could help you guys see the truth without getting lynched, but if my existence in this game is an obstacle to that at this point, I can accept it. Careful though, guys! You're all cutting it real close. Mafia will be one member short of a majority soon, and if they get it, it's game over.

The main reason I ignored how I was coming across so much, and why I'm not too distressed at being mislynched, is because I'm merely a vanilla townie. Sadly, I have nothing but my opinions and my vote to provide.


Darkie should no longer be considered a confirmed townie, assuming he ever was during this game. It's possible that another mafia member advised him to go out and have another big discussion Day 1 so that he could be a "confirmed townie" like he was in the last game, except my willingness to acknowledge his point of view kind of screwed that up for him. Plus, if he fakeclaimed a rolecop on Day 1, he could get away with not producing any results for the rest of the game (or at least until more people started revealing roles, but seeing as this is a fairly vanilla game we're playing, it's likely that there aren't too many town power roles for people to reveal to begin with.)

There's still very little definite about anybody in my eyes, which mainly owes to the fact that I'm seeing roughly half of the remaining players in one group and the other half in another group, and I have a couple potential scumteams in each of the groups.

If Sky Paladin is scum, it makes it much more likely for Darkie to be scum, and much less likely for Dormio to be scum. If Sky Paladin and Darkie are both scum, it makes it incredibly unlikely for NNR, Kilga, or Mitsuki to be the remaining member. This leaves Polaris and Validon. Of those two, I think Validon is much more likely to be scum.

Darkie being scum does not say as much about Paladin's alignment as Paladin being scum says about Darkie's alignment.

If Sky Paladin is not scum, it has no bearing on Darkie's alignment, and it makes it more likely for either Dormio or Kilga to be scum. For some reason, I keep reading Dormio and Kilga together.

I have not given as much thought to scenarios in which Sky Paladin is not scum, but I'll try and leave something.

If Sky Paladin is not scum, and NNR/Mitsuki/Kilga are all town, then Polaris, Dormio, Darkie, and Validon remain. I would imagine Dormio would be most likely to be scum in this case, and am uncertain about the others.

If two out of NNR/Mitsuki/Kilga are scum... honestly, the third member really depends on which two are scum, and even then there are several possibilities.


That's more or less how I see it. First hunch for scumteam is Paladin, Darkie, and Validon, after that it's [Kilga/NNR/Mitsuki], [Kilga/NNR/Mitsuki], [someone else]. That's kind of lame though. I might churn up some opinions on the Kilga/NNR/Mitsuki possibilities if I have time and I feel like it would be at all useful, but that may not happen.

That's everything I can think of that I have to say. I'm ready to be lynched now, provided you all step up your game something fierce afterwards. I'll still be around and doing what I can to help, but I won't be shocked if I'm lynched before long. As long as it'll help clear up confusion, I'm willing to accept that.


GYARGH

[BT]

BBM replaces Mitsuki.

[Validon98]

Well, the RP I did last night was amazing, and the thing I did today (which was a high school level quiz competition) went okay, despite the fact that I only had one hour of sleep last night. As such I am really tired.
Looking at what's happened I see a little more back and forth between Mitsuki and Kilga, which would raise some flags in my head but Mitsuki left her vote on Polaris so the point's somewhat moot in my mind. The reason it would raise flags is that, if NNR is telling the truth, the two of them if they were both town would get off each other's backs, which they sort of seem to have done but I'm not entirely sure. However, if they were both scum, they could claim NNR is lying, continue to fight each other, and then probably later on "make up" and join on another wagon to drive a mislynch.
Of course, I haven't entirely trusted NNR's claim. He could be lying to A- protect both of them, B- protect one of the two of them, C- make town suppose both of them are scum. Of course, it is hard for me to imagine Kilga as scum still, so perhaps he is on a scumteam with Mitsuki? I'm not sure, but seeing as she's replacing out I'll have to wait for what the new person is going to have to say (also, I'm sorry to hear that stuff about you, Mitsuki. I hope things work out! ^^;).
I don't think I have anything to add to the "Cheez is scum based off of ED2" thing, because I already looked at it before and the case makes sense. In general I don't have much to add except to say this to Cheez: The thing with this game is that you have to be careful with your wording as both town and scum. As town, you have to write things in ways that don't make you seem scummy while knowing that you indeed aren't scum. Scum has to do the same with the knowledge that they are scum. I recommend trying to pay attention to how you appear to town, because honestly the way you have appeared hasn't looked too towny from what I've seen.
If anyone wants something from me, don't hesitate to ask, but I'm tired and don't feel much like making anymore long walls of text today.

Cut: Oh hey BBM.

[BigBangMeteor]

Hullo. I haven't been paying attention to this game at all, so it'll take me a while to catch up.

[Kilgamayan]

Validon: I still haven't had the chance to read you over, but I see a fair amount of wishywashyness in that post.

- Do you think NNR is telling the truth or lying? Why?
- If you think NNR is telling the truth, are Mitsuki and I town or scum? Why?
- If you think NNR is lying, do you think Mitsuki and/or myself are scum? Why?

[Cheez8]

In general I don't have much to add except to say this to Cheez: The thing with this game is that you have to be careful with your wording as both town and scum. As town, you have to write things in ways that don't make you seem scummy while knowing that you indeed aren't scum. Scum has to do the same with the knowledge that they are scum. I recommend trying to pay attention to how you appear to town, because honestly the way you have appeared hasn't looked too towny from what I've seen.

Yes, yes... I've learned this quite thoroughly this game. At first, since I was only a vanilla townie, I figured it would be fine for me to stick my neck out like I did, but... Simply being a vanilla townie doesn't mean somebody's expendable. Lose too many vanilla townies and the mafia start to close in on the majority. No matter what role I get in the next game I join, I'll pay more attention to how I act.

[NekoNekoRex]

Unrelated to the above: I want everyone that hasn't already to weigh in on the votecount thing I discussed. The tl;dr version is that, if one accepts NNR's statement about Mitsuki and myself as true, then Cheez has to be scum by the way the End of Day 2 wagons shook down.

'm not good at votecount shenanigans. I know that when I play scum, I just find the scummiest player and peruse them (although I tend to cut my buddies some slack). I don't tend to participate in moving votes for stategery or the like.

As far as Cheez goes, I'm not too convinced he's scum by virtue of perusing Kilga, although I'd need to reread the casework on that. I DO have reasons to suspect Cheez, mostly the fact he didn't have a vote down until late D2, or much in the way of reads.

Ah, I'll come back to this in a sec

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

My neck hurts a lot.
I guess I slept in a really awkward position last night.

Anyway.
Like I said yesterday, I think Mitsuki's posts are kind of dumb and I'm ignoring them since Kilga is super awesome and I don't have a reason to disbelieve NNR.

Also, the more recent Kilga suspicion looks horribly forced(?) to me.
I mean Mitsuki was basically all like "Kilga, because gut!" and then a bunch of other people joined in going "Yeah! Kilga! Because he doesn't look right!".
That kind of thing.
I dunno.

My neck hurts really hurts so I'm going to do some neck exercises and then lie down except I won't do the lying down part because I have other things that I want to do.

Warning - while you were typing 6 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Huh.

[NekoNekoRex]

Ah, I'd rather not claim at the sole request of the probably-to-be-lynched fellow today, but I suppose I'll claim tomorrow if nobody else needs to know.

...Ah, the more I read into these Mitsuki vs Kilga posts the more I think they're town. I just don't see scum!Mitsuki continuing to attack Kilga,  but paranoid-town!Mitsuki could have reason to believe Kilga is a godfather or something, or that I'm a liar.

Read up on the votecount thing and still not really seeing the Cheez connection here beyond arbitrary speculation, but I still attribute that to my playstyle making it hard to connect the dots.

[DNAbc]

I just don undersrand what this fuss is about.

I find nnr scummy in his lurking playstyle helel facing into full throttle. So i am less inclined to trust him.
i never realized he claimed "some kin dof role ability". Because i kind of used all my limited time durimg thr past two days on conflicting between kilga. Paladin and generally skimming through things.
I am completely confused. Yes. And i basically have to type at 20wpm with two fingers. I just try to state who i find acummy. Vote for the scums. And point out tgr scumtatic. Thats it. I am nit even inclined to doublecheck because motk phone mode ha strouble scrolling. More often than not it eata my post when i scroll as i hit the wrong button

I didnt really see nnr claim. But dammit because theres so many walls and blip posters in this game. It is technically impossible for me really to read everything and weigh their values. I believe i even asked for a replacement becausr i wasnt sure if i could handle all these. But ky busy times are over.

I just want to win.  If you tell me dark, you fucked up everything. Look at this this an dthis. I will do it. Another mislynch and we in mylo or lylo. At this point i dont even know what to look at. I am blessed with a role and scum screwed it. What the fuck should i do at this point?

[NekoNekoRex]

MY claim was the first post of D2, it's kind of hard to miss :V

[NekoNekoRex]

I didn't read D1 but what warranted you to claim anyway?

[NekoNekoRex]

Oh, I see, you got piledrived for making really stupid posts ("let's lynch the null read lol"), plus "I support Serela lynch entirely based on his claim despite thinking his posting isn't scummy"

Yeah, I would have lynched you too

[Cheez8]

i never realized he claimed "some kin dof role ability". Because i kind of used all my limited time durimg thr past two days on conflicting between kilga. Paladin and generally skimming through things.

If you were paying any attention to anything involving Kilga, you'd have realized that in roughly half of Kilga's everybody's posts this day people mention NNR's claim that Kilga and Mitsuki are the same alignment. This has been extremely important information and there's no way you could have missed it this entire time unless...

...
I'm stumped.
There's no way you could have missed it this entire time.
Where the heck did you think the idea that Kilga and Mitsuki were on the same team came from, anyway?

I just want to win.  If you tell me dark, you fucked up everything. Look at this this an dthis. I will do it. Another mislynch and we in mylo or lylo. At this point i dont even know what to look at. I am blessed with a role and scum screwed it. What the fuck should i do at this point?

The scum team didn't screw you out of making use of your role. You did that yourself when you felt the need to announce it to the scum team in the middle of D1. They had no incentive to send their roleblocker after any particular player until you did that.

[Cheez8]

(also I have no advice on what you should do now other than try to lynch somebody more suspicious than me, such as Sky Paladin)
(you aren't hoping somebody will advise you to vote for me in order to have an excuse to hammer me without looking bad, are you? I hope not)

[Polaris]

##Unvote

I need to reassess the situation.

[Validon98]

Validon: I still haven't had the chance to read you over, but I see a fair amount of wishywashyness in that post.

- Do you think NNR is telling the truth or lying? Why?
- If you think NNR is telling the truth, are Mitsuki and I town or scum? Why?
- If you think NNR is lying, do you think Mitsuki and/or myself are scum? Why?

1- At the moment I am not particularly sure, but if I were to decide I would say I lean more towards trusting him, for the reason that his posts have been more trustworthy than the people I have been suspecting.
2- If he is telling the truth, then I would tend to think you two are town. You particularly have been one of my stronger townreads, simply because your logic, your accusations, everything just screams "this is a guy who wants to lynch scum." Mitsuki I had less faith in, but I did not see anything particularly scummy in her posts.

I'm sure this question is going to be asked later, but you might be wondering why I wrote that stuff, and it was mainly because I was thinking out loud. It's not wrong to trust roleclaims, I just didn't want to simply say "okay, this must be a true claim" without thinking. Of course, after thinking, I don't see a reason why I shouldn't at least for now, trust it.

[Polaris]

##Vote Sky Paladin

I'm going to do this for now.

[BigBangMeteor]

Well, I'm at the end of N1. Haven't read past that yet, but these are some reads as of right now:

DNA: Probably town on tone. His logic is terrible but he has that tone to his posts where he seriously can't understand why people don't agree with him that I think comes more often from town.

Validon: I think he's scum. Most of his content involved talking about how people needed to talk more when he himself had only two posts making scumhunting attempts. I think a post SB made at some point about it sums it up pretty well. His first two posts were really wordy and had no reads, and then his next few were just saying that he'd have content later. Then his DNA vote was bad because it was just saying DNA's logic was bad rather than actually scummy (I think Kilga made this criticism). Then he drops that for a Serela vote due to no content. I really don't like it because he drops his suspicion around the same time others are, and then votes Serela around the same time others are, even though he didn't previously vote Polaris or SB or Dormio for low content when he called them out on it. This is especially bad IMO because later he says he expects low activity from Serela, but had higher standards from the others. So why is it scummier for Serela to do it than the others? I know the comment was because SB was pushing him for not calling out Serela for low content, but still. Also even though he says he still "has his eye" on DNA, his next post is ragging on SB for sticking to his guns about that. Also in the same sentence he calls the DNA wagon "not 100% bad" and dumb.  My top D1 scumread, though I'll wait to finish reading the thread before dropping a vote on anyone. He also kept talking about how Polaris/Serela's roles made him think that they were ITP or something, which I didn't like.

Kilga: I thought he was townie for most of the day but some of his content about Serela left a weird taste in my mouth. Like near the end he kept pushing Serela to scumhunt, which is fair enough. But then Serela replied that he was attacking Shadoweh and Kilga replied to push harder for others to vote Shadoweh over him. I mean, what exactly do you want him to do? It felt kind of unfair. Also at some point I remember him saying something like "Shadoweh represented pretty accurately why I'm still voting Serela" except AFAICR Shadoweh was defending Serela for most of the phase? And IIRC he even made a point about that.

Dormio: He felt pretty forgettable. Can't remember anything he did D1 other than being really wordy in RVS about nothing much.

Anyways, gonna take a break for now.

[BigBangMeteor]

Also, just saw Polaris's vote above my post- Polaris, how does your voting work with Serela dead? Is it normal now or does it vote do nothing at all with Serela incapable of voting with you?

[Polaris]

It's normal :V You should just read the rest of the game to see it in action!

[Kilgamayan]

Here's the most recent example.  There's more but I don't have time to go through the whole thread.  Mitsuki also called you on it earlier in day 3 iirc.

That is a link to a post where I say that a lot of other players in this game have called me a great player (which is true and I would scour the thread for links if I had the time right now). It is not a quote where I call myself a great player. Please try again. I want exact quotes where I'm propping myself up because I know for a fact that I never seriously put myself on a pedestal in-game.

Kilga: I thought he was townie for most of the day but some of his content about Serela left a weird taste in my mouth. Like near the end he kept pushing Serela to scumhunt, which is fair enough. But then Serela replied that he was attacking Shadoweh and Kilga replied to push harder for others to vote Shadoweh over him. I mean, what exactly do you want him to do? It felt kind of unfair.

I don't think I'm parsing this correctly. I was being unfair by pushing Serela to scumhunt and try to get people to agree with him (on a person I was also voting)? >_> I wanted him, if he was town, to push a case on someone he thought was scum, so he'd have a chance of saving himself, which is exactly what I encouraged. Can you explain this further?

Also at some point I remember him saying something like "Shadoweh represented pretty accurately why I'm still voting Serela" except AFAICR Shadoweh was defending Serela for most of the phase? And IIRC he even made a point about that.

Looks like you're thinking of #384. My comment about Shadowy properly pointing out Serela's scumminess was a reference to #359, in which I thought Shadowy was pretty clearly pointing out behaviour she found scummy. I agreed with this point because it is not an uncommon psychological scumslip for scum to address a townie with a tone that heavily implies an assumption of towniness in a situation where the scum would have little/no reason to assume such a thing were they town. It's basically an accidental overplay of scum's extra knowledge.

Polaris, if you're going to change your vote away from Cheez, I want to hear your assessment of the color-coded vote counts.

[Polaris]

I highly doubt that Cheez switched to you with the motive of "forcing you to claim" because I think that's an incredibly uncommon and advanced thought process that I would find few people to be capable of (myself included). Normally it would be a bit bizarre to have all three scum on the same wagon but it's not too incredible in this specific situation with the way the wagons (or wagon, singular) happened and the general experience of the players involved.

Then again, there are other reasons why Cheez could have avoided the major wagon, perhaps to dissociate from his other scumbuddies or avoid taking responsibility for lynching town (which he had prior knowledge of).

hold on i'm in a pokemon battle right now so i can't concentrate on this post anymore so i'll just post it like this

[BigBangMeteor]

At the end of D2. Wow, you guys need to read this game: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=36597 on how to break open a role that can't give info about why they're voting someone. Highly disappointed in SB since he was in that game.

@Kilga- Well, by being unfair, I meant that Serela was already voting Shadoweh and had said why he thought she was scummy- what more was he supposed to do? Tell people to vote her in every post he made? But I changed my mind on you anyways. I've been in the position of obvtown scum before and if that was you this game I don't think that you would keep bringing attention to the fact that you didn't die at the beginning of D2.

My read on Validon is unchanged. He barely did anything D2 other than sheep an easy Shadoweh case. He begins the day with a look at SP's posts that talks about how they have a lot of not-relevant stuff in them. Except all the posts he links to are from RVS or just after RVS ends, with no attempt to look at all his posts in the latter 48 hours of the phase, where he was actually posting content. He also talks about how he still feels kind of iffy about DNA even though others think he's townie- which is bad because on D1 he pushed SB for not agreeing with the rest of the game on DNA (which is something scummy on its own that I forgot to mention in my last post- not agreeing with the majority of the game isn't scummy). And then again later he implies that PX is scummy for not agreeing with the Shadoweh case. I mean, I agree that PX should have given reasons for his opinion, but why is having an unpopular opinion scummy? Also he admits that he started with CF7 for his ISOs because it was easy and then gets mad when Polaris calls him out for that? 

Sky is mostly OK but two things really pinged me. Firstly, near the end of D1 he voted Serela, partially using the reasoning that he didn't think that both Serela and Polaris could be town. Yet there's no mention of this on D2 and no follow-up on Polaris on D2 at all. Secondly, I really didn't like both that post and one near the beginning of D2 for how waffly they were about Serela, and apologizing for it. I need to ISO him but I can't really remember any conviction in any of his reads.

Dormio- Still forgettable. I think he just was voting Sky the whole time?

[BT]

Votecount 3.6

Cheez8 (3): Kilgamayan, Validon98, Sky_Paladin
Sky_Paladin (3): Dormio, Cheez8, Polaris
Polaris (1): BigBangMeteor
Kilgamayan (1): Darkninjaabc
Darkninjaabc (1): NekoNekoRex

It's 5 to lynch and 23 hours remaining.
(Countdown)

[DNAbc]

Isnt it bbm now

[NekoNekoRex]

Don't have anything new to say, other then the fact I find it very hard to believe Dark didn't notice something which has been a topic of conversation throughout the entire day.

Not really sure why people are ignoring him. He may be clueless but his logic is also the worst ever, no comparison.

[NekoNekoRex]

I mean last game he was at least remotely sensible but it feels like he's throwing crap to see what sticks here.

[DNAbc]

You are just being outright unreasonable.

I am having a very hard time playing this game. I stated such and i know my logix isnt the best. Keep on attacking what i cant defend against is also irritating. I did it. Theres that. I explained it in terms of how busy i am. You hold a complete disregard of that an dkept on bein gloud and obnoxious.

If anything i dont even want to trust you anymore. This is such a rage inducing game.

##Vote: nnr

That is l1 scum. If you cant stop harassing others and be an annoying prick it couldve went better for your so called persuing the mosy scummy player in the form of spewing crap which literally made no sense. I am town and least i could do is to vote scum.