Author Topic: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom  (Read 55515 times)

Keine Kamishirasawa

  • The Great Sealed Historian
  • *
  • Acta est fabula, plaudite!

Kilgamayan

  • True
  • *
  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 11:37:19 AM »
Quote
I was ignored while I tried to correct

I'm not really expecting anyone to believe this is true, but I talked to Mint afterward about various things, and when this came up, he told me he was only aware you were saying something and that he couldn't make out what it was.  Once it happened several times he realized what he was doing and tried to correct himself. Sadly the room was too echoey for us to go back to Murein's tape and check to be sure. I should also point out (to everyone, not just you) that I misgendered someone on Friday night in front of him and he corrected me.

I'm not saying these things to excuse what happened or make people like him again or get him restored in any capacity in this corner of the WTC. I'm saying this simply to put it out there.

I would suggest anyone that wishes to discuss any part of this post contact me about it in private: this is all that will be and needs to be said on the matter publicly, and I don't want heated discussion of one person to hijack the purpose of this news post. Further discussion of this particular issue in this thread will be summarily ignored by me unless TSO greenlights it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:08:48 PM by Kilgamayan »
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

helvetica

  • Arcade Maid
  • *
  • United Federation
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 12:42:04 PM »
I have clarified the statement a bit further.

And yes, this is not a discussion of the particular event but more about how to gracefully handle people who are gender variant and why it is important to. Any comments about the event in question at AWA will be considered off topic. This is strictly my account of my feelings as an example of why sensitivity should be displayed towards these issues.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:56:51 PM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 12:42:56 PM »
My POV on this has gone through a few permutations. The speed and availability of the spread of information means that once marginalized and ignored groups can now take part in larger discussions alongside visible majorities, whether in politics, economics, race or gender. This has allowed me the extraordinary privilege of being able to hear and read these voices that were once upon a time completely unknown to me. Listening has been a very eye-opening experience, and has led to some pretty basic conclusions.

Political, racial and sexual majorities enjoy a privilege that they, in fairness, might not even be aware of themselves. We tend to view our immediate world as the world, and assume that other people have the same levels of opportunities and respect. This is demonstrably false. I like to think that most of us do not set out to intentionally marginalize and belittle minorities, but it does happen, because of the previously mentioned assumptions. If we have to live together - and, as far as I can see, we most certainly do - then the onus is on the majority to listen when minorities speak, treat with respect how they describe their experience, and make an effort to make spaces of privilege into spaces of inclusion.

This is no different when it comes to gender and sexuality. If someone self-identifies as male, female, genderqueer, undifferentiated or androgynous, this is a part of their identity, and it is a very basic and crucial part of human dignity to acknowledge and respect how an individual self-identifies. It is, in other words, the very least we can do.

As a heterosexual white male, I have to say that the pushback against gender self-identity has been, as far as I've seen, a kind of tiresome contrarianism, mostly from the privileged, who take assertions of self-identity as somehow insincere and not to be taken seriously. This is a mistake. There is probably no more basic human right than the right to your own identity. Respecting this basic right does no harm to anyone; in fact, it helps us treat each other a little better.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

helvetica

  • Arcade Maid
  • *
  • United Federation
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 01:45:18 PM »
I really believe the vast majority of people within the WTC and the larger visual arts culture agree on the right to self-identification and expression, and that there's really only a handful of stinkers who just want to ruin people's days. I definitely agree the issue more so is that people may not necessarily understand or even realize how important the right to gender self-identification is unless you are of a gender variance of some kind.

I know the vast majority here are good people. It's just hard to potentially be aware of these issues when you're not facing them on a daily basis. There may not be a frame of reference. Being in cosplay and being misgendered may not necessarily be a big deal. At the end of the day you take the costume off and you're back to yourself. For a lot of gender variant people though, cosplay is an outlet to a gender expression we are not normally afforded in the real world. That's why I'm a huge cosplayer. I get to wear the pretty elaborate things I may not get a chance to otherwise. This is why I'm expressing my feelings on this subject, to make people aware and nudge them to be more sensitive to these issues so that others can feel more comfortable. I'm speaking up for the people who may not wish to draw attention to their status, or merely do not have the ability to present the way they wish to, conventions or otherwise.

This is where etiquette comes into play. I don't expect everyone to be a mind reader. I expect to be read a bit harder at cons because well, crossplay happens. It doesn't help me feel any better though when I get sir'ed and he and him'ed simply because they were assuming and putting the responsibility to correct them at my feet. When I first started presenting female openly I didn't correct anyone, and it just made me feel really crappy because I was trying as hard as I could to pass. To this day I still feel really scared when I do correct and sometimes other people have to correct for me because of it.

Ask if you don't know. Don't assume by appearance you know someone's gender. Use gender neutral pronouns unless you absolutely know, from them (not your buddies), what they should be. "They" is an acceptable gender neutral pronoun, "it" is not. Avoid gendered honorifics like sir and ma'am. This one really really bothers me. I don't understand why people insist on using gendered honorifics. I know they may think it's "polite" but it really isn't, especially when you miss. There was one vendor at Katsucon 2013 I was interested in purchasing stuff from, but when she sir'ed me I lost all interest. I felt really really embarrassed and ashamed to both correct her and to even think about purchasing the items I was thinking about as they were very girly in nature. You can address someone without implying a gender.

And I know people will flub it up. I have long term relationships with people that I formed prior to coming out, and I really wish to maintain them for the most part. I know I unintentionally get misgendered because it takes a while to break those mental associations. Even my roommate, who is trans, I sometimes flub pronouns with and he flubs mine. It wasn't until very recently I was completely out presenting as female, so I was gendered properly at home but in public I was still male. Same situation in regards to him. Having to break that habit takes time. It is not intentional at all, brains are silly things. When that happens, apologize! I know I do. If you get corrected then accept the correction. Don't brush it off as "whatever, no big deal"; just because it may not be a big deal to you, it probably is a big deal to them. Even though I told people it wasn't a big deal it really was a big deal, I just didn't want to make a scene about it.

It may not seem like a big deal to most people, but for gender variant people it really is. Most of our lives have been spent either battling to figure out what our identity is, or struggling to express it in a world that may not have readily accepted it. Touhou was my safe spot, but I hid from the public eye for the longest time because I knew people would challenge the validity of my identity once they saw my physical form. And trust me, I agonize daily about the parts that don't look "feminine" to me, when I really shouldn't. I really am not that atypical from other girls physically, but I am hyper aware of anything that may look remotely male and it drives me up the wall. That's how toxic the concept of "passing" is. Being misgendered only reinforces this desire to "pass".

Passing is a really toxic subject in my opinion. It enforces this stereotype that your identity is only valid if other people agree to it. Not everyone can pass, not everyone is in a position to pass. Not everyone wants to pass. Some people are perfectly fine in their physical appearance and merely express a different gender identity internally. But to me it feels like I am told again and again unless I look like my target gender to the average human eye I won't be considered as such, or worse, may face repercussion. The reality is my identity is mine alone, and you don't get to decide if my expression is valid or not. Now granted a convention is generally a much safer place to be gender variant, as generally the threat of any violence or repercussion is exceedingly low.

There's just this weird duality that there seems to be a higher standard to "passing" because of people being aware of crossplay. You would think being aware that people cosplay across genders and that gender variant people are typically higher in numbers at conventions would mean more people are sensitive to it. Instead of people being more aware and gentle about it, I get misgendered a lot more than I normally would otherwise. In a fit of irony I end up passing better in the situations where it's more important to, but I get misgendered in the space that would be most accommodating to me. It really bothers me as you would think being such a safe zone it wouldn't be anything like that. I don't think it's intentional, I think it's merely a symptom of people being more sensitive to gender cues and unintentionally misgendering people who may not fit all the right ones perfectly. I had one guy call me a dude because of my voice until he saw I had boobs. Think about that for a second lol.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 02:04:51 PM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Kilgamayan

  • True
  • *
  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 02:07:36 PM »
I have two specific concerns/fears about directly asking strangers. Hopefully they can be assuaged in some capacity.

1) If someone is actively trying to pass, I feel like asking them could be taken as an implication that they're not doing a good enough job of it, and I don't want to offend.
2) As a tall, masculine neckbeard, I feel like asking around a lot risks painting me as a dude trolling the con for poon, and I don't want security to escort me from the premises.

The 'they' thing I am willing to try but I know I will cock it up repeatedly because work requires me to actively avoid using it as a singular pronoun.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 02:12:27 PM by Kilgamayan »
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

N-Forza

  • Information Superhighway Robbery
  • *
  • I said it was a steal, but not for whom
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 02:16:55 PM »
I have no problem with whatever you choose to identify yourself as, but it seems to me that asking everyone you meet what gender they want to be referred to as seems it could potentially offend some people or just make them think you're a weirdo. (like what Kilga said)

People you meet in real life for the first time should at least have a little bit of leeway, like a reminder or two, or forgiveness if it just slips out on the high of a (positive) emotion. I would hate to see someone ostracized for something they did without the intention of offending.

helvetica

  • Arcade Maid
  • *
  • United Federation
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 03:08:04 PM »
I have two specific concerns/fears about directly asking strangers. Hopefully they can be assuaged in some capacity.

1) If someone is actively trying to pass, I feel like asking them could be taken as an implication that they're not doing a good enough job of it, and I don't want to offend.
Depends on how you ask. The accepted way to ask is "what pronouns do you prefer?". This does not imply that I'm being read trans, just that they're asking me what I prefer. Asking someone "hey are you trans?" while a bit more offensive, is still a better alternative than just being misgendered outright.

I would rather have someone take me aside and ask me before assuming, rather than put me out in the open that they read me. That gives me the chance to assert my identity, rather than my identity being asserted for me and then making me refute that.

Quote
2) As a tall, masculine neckbeard, I feel like asking around a lot risks painting me as a dude trolling the con for poon, and I don't want security to escort me from the premises.
I think if you stick to the pronoun question it will never come off as that. There's people who look and present female who may not actually prefer female pronouns at all. To assume that only trans people get to pick their pronouns is also kind of crappy and denies other gender variant people the right to self-identify. I know it may seem silly to you, and in some ways it even seems sort of silly to me. I'm firmly on the gender binary, there's no question I'm a girl and I want to be identified as such, period. But if something like pronouns makes someone feel a lot better, it's a small burden for me to ask them before using them.

Quote
The 'they' thing I am willing to try but I know I will cock it up repeatedly because work requires me to actively avoid using it as a singular pronoun.
English is kind of weird because gender is only assigned to people, not objects, so using something like "it" is extremely offensive because of that. "They" is a grammatically correct singular gender neutral pronoun, and is generally accepted as an ok substitute that doesn't imply any sort of gender. Some gender variant people actually prefer "they" and "them". If they would prefer something else, they will typically correct you. Correcting from "they" is a lot less stressful, as having to correct from he or she implies they are trans, when they may not necessarily be (or if they are, may not necessarily want the world to know).

This is why there's a big push in places like Sweden to make everything gender neutral. This isn't destroying the notion of gender. On the contrary, this is asserting it as a point of self-identification. By removing the assumption of gender from words like "mailman" and removing having to publicly identify yourself to do things like drive a car or goto the bathroom, it puts the power back to the person to decide if and how they wish to express their gender. There's no reason you need to know my gender on my license, nor force me to pick a bathroom based on how other people accept my identity. The only time it is relevant what parts I have is between my doctors, and my partner. That's it.

I have no problem with whatever you choose to identify yourself as, but it seems to me that asking everyone you meet what gender they want to be referred to as seems it could potentially offend some people or just make them think you're a weirdo. (like what Kilga said)

People you meet in real life for the first time should at least have a little bit of leeway, like a reminder or two, or forgiveness if it just slips out on the high of a (positive) emotion. I would hate to see someone ostracized for something they did without the intention of offending.
Putting it that way attempts to equate the discomforts as equal, and I have to say it really isn't on the same level. Having someone think you're a weirdo for asking pronouns and going "x, duh" is far less offensive than misgendering someone who may not necessarily have the strength of will to correct you. As it stands right now cisgendered people don't have to actively assert their gender, but I do. Think about that for a second. You're asking me to continue to have to actively assert my gender because you don't want to potentially have to. I'm not saying you are intending this, but that's how it comes off as.

Asking someone their pronouns is not taking away the rights of cisgendered people to identify themselves; merely, it removes the assumption that physical appearance is linked to gender. A cisgendered person doesn't have to actively assert their gender everyday, it's just assumed properly. Trans and other gender-variant people, on the other hand, have to actively identify themselves or be at the mercy of whatever box people want to toss them in. That's where the pressure to "pass" comes in, pressure to act or appear masculine or feminine in order to fit into the gender binary. Before I could potentially pass as female I tried very hard to pass as male to avoid ridicule and harassment. This forced a lot of psychological trauma on me that to this day I'm still dealing with. Now that I'm able to shed that persona a lot of my psychological problems and anxiety have gone away, but it's still somewhat of a struggle to deal with people who misidentify me. There's still a strong pull when I'm with some people to identify as male around them because it's simply "easier" to hurt myself and internalize the pain than potentially deal with the conflict that may arise from asserting myself as female. Some people don't even have that option and are forced to present a way in order to survive, and some people have no interest in even being on the binary. Yet they're still beholden to their physical appearance to determine what gender they get identified as.

Changing your lexicon to use they and them in place of <insert gendered pronoun> until you actively know it's ok to use it isn't all that difficult, yet it saves a ton of grief for gender variant people. When I was with Vic over the weekend he straight up asked me if it was cool if he used "dude" and stuff. I was ok with it. I really appreciated he asked though, because not everyone is comfortable with it, and saying "oh I say dude to everyone" doesn't make it any more right. When you meet someone new use they and them, and if you really want to use gendered pronouns simply ask them what pronouns they'd prefer or wait for them to assert them if you're uncomfortable asking.

I know it's not necessarily going to be easy at first, which is why I tend to be a lot more accepting about it when people flub. But realize it doesn't make it any less painful to me because I'm more accepting of it. It really doesn't. In fact it tends to hurt a lot more at cons and stuff where I feel like I should be more readily accepted, I tend to take my defenses down a bit more versus out in public where being misgendered could potentially mean violence. It's really awkward and sad how in the safe spot I get misgendered a lot more than I do out in public where it's far more riskier to be misgendered. The onus should definitely be on the person in a position of privilege to actively seek out ways to make things more comfortable for those who aren't, rather than assume they're the majority and to expect others to correct their behavior for them.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 03:19:37 PM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


CyberAngel

  • Retired
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 05:05:28 PM »
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, since I admit I literally know nothing about cosplay, but I think I can understand why TSO would feel that Touhou cosplay conventions aren't as much of a safe haven for this issue as they should be. It's Touhou we're talking about. Since most characters are female, it shouldn't be that strange to refer cosplayers as female by default, since that would be refering to them in-character. Thinking about that, asking them the question of which pronoun to use shouldn't sound as strange either, because it's quite possible that even a cis hetero male might want to stay fully in-character if they so desire. Again, if that's just something I don't really get, feel free to correct me.

DX7.EP

  • Red shroom
  • *
  • Smooth Charisma
    • Sanmaat (site of personal tat)
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2013, 05:24:17 PM »
I've started to notice this mis-representation more often since joining other community members for conventions. Rather dis-settling.

I'm glad this has been posted to draw more attention to the issue; hopefully we can reduce this tendency.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

helvetica

  • Arcade Maid
  • *
  • United Federation
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 05:30:06 PM »
Conventions in general seem to have both an unusual mix of very supportive people, and people more aware of gender cues and potentially reading people. Like everyone was really supportive of me when I pointed out when I was being misgendered by people. For the most part I get the feeling that they're not intentionally trying to out people, they're just a bit more sensitive to gender cues and may be able to "read" better. Unfortunately this isn't very good for gender variant people who may only have cons as a way to express their gender identity safely. It was extremely hard for me as I've been fulltime for a while now.

It's especially frustrating as a Touhou fan as it has a reputation for being a crossplay heavy fandom. The only cosplay I have consistently been gendered female is my Fionna the Human cosplay, and even then I was misgendered by a dealer at Katsucon. When we had the photoshoot at Katsucon there was a call for male and female cosplayers, and while I did go up for the female shot it was over awkward for me as it was my first con with the WTC actually presenting female. Nobody gave me any problems though, which was amazingly supportive and helped a lot to make my weekend better when people did mess up.

I really don't think there's an issue with people not accepting gender variant people in this fandom outside of a couple isolated buttheads. It's more just a lack of awareness of the issues gender variant people may face even in a safe zone like a convention. And I'm hoping to spread the word on how to handle situations and such in a way to make us even more welcoming to everyone.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 05:34:44 PM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Berzul

  • (*7(*7(*7(*7(*7
  • Round face... z( ⌣ω⌣)z
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2013, 07:26:47 PM »
Well I expected this be more about how the term "trap" is used, but it's just a title I guess... (Though something should be said imho)

MatsuriSakuragi

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2013, 08:02:07 PM »
Well I expected this be more about how the term "trap" is used, but it's just a title I guess... (Though something should be said imho)

It shouldn't be used, is kind of the point.

helvetica

  • Arcade Maid
  • *
  • United Federation
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2013, 09:54:39 PM »
Yeah I was using it facetiously. You really shouldn't call someone a trap >>


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 10:41:27 PM »
Pardon my curiosity (you may choose to ignore this question) but as I read that passage in its writing style, I couldn't help hearing a male voice. Are some male aspects (such as confidence and argumentative assertiveness among others) something you aren't very keen on letting go? What aspects of your view of yourself do you see as female?

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2013, 11:03:06 PM »
Are some male aspects (such as confidence and argumentative assertiveness among others) something you aren't very keen on letting go?

fuck you femininity doesn't mean being a useless fucking doormat

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2013, 11:07:02 PM »
That might've been an exaggeration. But that's not what feminism's about - if there's no clear distinction between male and female, the issue of resolving gender issues becomes moot.

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2013, 11:14:45 PM »
the difference

is in

your heart

(`_?)ゞ

Zil

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2013, 11:19:12 PM »
pretty sure feminism is about equality, not establishing differences.

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2013, 11:27:17 PM »
Equality is subjective, while differences are objective. For every assertion that one gender is "better" than another, there's another that indicates the opposite. But writing styles do differ generally among male and female writers, and both have their own ways of expressing themselves. It's just that the traits I saw (read) in the post points me to the "male" kind of assertiveness. With that said, females have their own ways of sounding assertive as well. I'll confess that this is entirely my subjective view. Hope that got cleared up.

Jq1790

  • Wow I'm back to playing this game.
  • Let's puzzle together again, Karin!
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2013, 11:29:14 PM »
Pardon my curiosity (you may choose to ignore this question) but as I read that passage in its writing style, I couldn't help hearing a male voice. Are some male aspects (such as confidence and argumentative assertiveness among others) something you aren't very keen on letting go? What aspects of your view of yourself do you see as female?
I'm curious to hear your end of this...What about her writing sounded "male" to you?  How can a series of words come out as "male" or "female", in your eyes?

EDIT after noticing the above post of yours:  What would you say characterizes "male" or "female" assertiveness, and why can't the opposite gender(or those who fall outside of the binary) sound that way?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 11:39:54 PM by Jq1790 »
If you're a Pazudora player and aren't on #puzzleandlibrarians, come join us!

Vento

  • Playtime is over!!!!
  • *
  • TRIGGER WARNING : #2handsome5casuls
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2013, 11:31:37 PM »
Why is this on the front page and not in Letty Journal ???
Distasteful Tater Elites 1st division

commandercool

  • alter cool
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2013, 11:35:05 PM »
Equality is subjective, while differences are objective. For every assertion that one gender is "better" than another, there's another that indicates the opposite. But writing styles do differ generally among male and female writers, and both have their own ways of expressing themselves. It's just that the traits I saw (read) in the post points me to the "male" kind of assertiveness. With that said, females have their own ways of sounding assertive as well. I'll confess that this is entirely my subjective view. Hope that got cleared up.

That's a common argument, and not one that really makes any sense to me. Doesn't it assume that all people of one gender are exactly the same as all other people in that gender? :wat:
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2013, 11:51:54 PM »
Ascribing character traits to gender is completely unscientific and should never be taken seriously. It says more about the describer than anything else. There's nothing "objective" about it.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2013, 12:22:32 AM »
I'm curious to hear your end of this...What about her writing sounded "male" to you?  How can a series of words come out as "male" or "female", in your eyes?

EDIT after noticing the above post of yours:  What would you say characterizes "male" or "female" assertiveness, and why can't the opposite gender(or those who fall outside of the binary) sound that way?

Well seeing that everyone's likely to agree that there's no formula or algorithm to label a speech pattern as 100% "male" or "female" I'm just going to have to go with the "it's my subjective opinion that's based on my personal experiences" argument. Whatever the actual reasons are, I'm sure they're not important to the wider scope of things. This is just one of the many issues similar to gender variants being misidentified by their voice, appearance, or behavior, etc.

Is the general consensus here to jail whomever mistakens a person's gender by their writing style? We're doing nothing to resolve the issue. Sure, my curiosity may be unfounded, and it may very well turn out the writing style has no correlation with "masculinity" in any way, but my curiosity is still there. Not because I'm here to hate on transsexuals (I'll admit I haven't actually met or talked with someone who's transsexual, so I'm in no position to say I understand their predicament - that would be hypocritical). I can only say that I'm genuinely curious about the things mentioned above.

Let's put the spotlight back on those who it's meant for - the ones whose point of view Helvetica is trying to highlight. They can be hurt by someone's ignorant blunder, and sure, the blame can be put on the person who sir'ed the female transgender, or the mangaka who was confused by a certain person in a photo-shoot. But are they really to be blamed? Maybe. But certainly not more than 50% of the blame. Who, then, is responsible for this unresolved pain that might end up as a column such as this one?

Those who are misunderstood can ask for understanding, but to do so they should also cater to the curiosity of others. It's a common give-and-take situation; I'm sure they wouldn't want to be seen as analogous to beggars on the street. It may hurt to answer a few revealing questions, but first, at least acknowledge this curiosity!

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2013, 12:30:08 AM »
its not about blame though

its just about being respectful

Silentsword

  • Ace Hakurei Attorney
  • Practical solutions to impractical problems!
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2013, 12:39:07 AM »
I think that saying "don't use the term "trap"" is a bit of overkill.  This conversation came up before in #conmeido, and as I recall, the conclusion was that unless you damn well know for sure that you won't give offense - i.e. that you are in fact referring to a cisgendered person passing as a character of the opposite gender -- you don't use the term.  And that is the ONLY time, as far as I can see, that the term is valid and should be used.

For some cosplayers, the term "trap" is a badge of honor -- and one that we VASTLY prefer over the other term that gets applied to those who crossplay and do it well (that being "troll", along with many of the same less salutory examples that helvetica pointed out are also applied to transgendered persons). 

Beyond that, however, I think it's important to respect each other, as helvetica describes.  I'm not a big fan of using "they" to refer to a person - to my mind, and in my upbringing, using "they" to refer to a single person is on the same level as using "it", because it dehumanizes and deuniques (n.b.: not a real word) them.  What I ask - demand really, although I've yet to meet anyone who wouldn't meet this demand - is that if I get it wrong, you gently correct me.  In return, I will do my damndest to get the pronouns correct every time thereafter.  And that "you" can refer both to the person whose gender I mistook and to their friends and compatriots.  Basically, if you show me the courtesy to say "hey, I prefer {insert pronoun here}", I'll get it right, even if I might occasionally goof early on.

Because you know what?  What's important to my friends is important to me.
"But if I don't do this, then all that's left is to stand around and do nothing, and I've discovered I can't do that. That's the problem with the freedom of choice he was talking about: once you've got it, you can't live with yourself very comfortably if you choose not to exercise it." - Commander Warner Caslet.

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2013, 01:07:51 AM »
Just a reminder: Gender is a social construct not a biological construct. There is no one behavior system that fits to any one gender identity.  I'd imagine that the cis guys here wouldn't want me to say that they can only sound male if they scream at sporting events and write in a short and aggressive manner.  And also please remember that many people under the trans* umbrella (myself included) have had to force ourselves to behave with mannerisms that are counter-intuitive to our gender idenity and it often takes time to unlearn those behavior if we even choose to do so.

Silent Harmony

  • Everybody needs the Pharmarcy
  • Justice never dies!
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2013, 01:10:27 AM »
I'm sorry if this post offends, but "gender" has been a huge part of my life recently and I feel no closer to understanding it now than ever.

Ascribing character traits to gender is completely unscientific and should never be taken seriously. It says more about the describer than anything else. There's nothing "objective" about it.


I looked up several dictionaries and encyclopedia (among other sites) and here's what I managed to dig up. From what I can tell, Gender seems to be accepted by many as one's "sexual identity", completely binary, and nothing more. For instance, Britannica says the following as its first statement:
gender identity, an individual’s self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex."

Merriam-Webster states the following about gender however:
"2b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex"
Note that it's not just about sex, it's also the "traits" associated to one's sex. I suppose, if you want, you can describe this as simple stereotyping and nothing more.

Meanwhile, the "medical" definition of transgender reads:
 "of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or a transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth"
This would imply something akin to a spectrum (a term I've heard used before) rather than a binary phenomenon.

WebMD shuts that down however:
"One who appears as, wishes to become, or has undergone surgery to become a member of the opposite sex." Period.

This, of course, does not even include the books I've read and stories I've heard; each one contradicting the other.


This is where I'm confused. Is gender simply "I'm a guy/girl" or something more? Binary or spectrum/umbrella (I know that's *trans*gender, but how can you be in a tg spectrum if gender itself is binary)? Is it entirely based on how one sees their body, or is there indeed other, deeper traits?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:19:12 AM by Mimeslayer »

1CC List (all shmups)
League of Legends / Battle.net: Harmony11(#1694)

hungrybookworm

  • Shipper On Board
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2013, 01:49:42 AM »
I'm really sorry you had to go through all that during what should have been a really fun and amazing convention, helvetica :( I'm a cisgendered female, so I won't pretend to know what it's like to go through life transgendered, but I do have close family members in the LGBT community, so I've seen first hand how upsetting people's comments and assumptions can be, regardless of how well meaning they were. Hopefully things will be easier for you at future cons (and in life in general) thanks to this article.