Karisa's Atypical Touhou Challenges (on hold again)

[Karisa]

The intent of ranking all shot types together is to encourage players try to find the most effective shot type (for this challenge; for others it's just so players can use whichever they're most comfortable with). I'm not surprised that there have been mostly ReimuC entries, but ReimuC isn't the only shot with a decent bomb for graze avoidance, so I left it open.

It might be different for a graze avoidance challenge in other games. Particularly the earlier ones before bomb resistance was introduced, where ties at 0 graze are a possibility. I'm not sure yet.

[Mino ☆]

#1 - Extra - ReimuC
Mino - 1616 - 0.00% - Replay

Very interesting challenge. I'll have to work on my route a bit. But I'll probably get back to this later.

Spoiler:

Enjoy your spot while it lasts, Wriggle. ;P

[Wriggle]

#1 - Extra - ReimuC
Mino - 1616 - 0.00% - Replay

Very interesting challenge. I'll have to work on my route a bit. But I'll probably get back to this later.

Spoiler:

Enjoy your spot while it lasts, Wriggle. ;P

I sure will. Gotta have to defend it earlier than expected. :V

[Karisa]

(Replying here now that there's a thread for it)

EDIT: 2 stage idea is kinda nifty.  Maybe you could bring out some trials in the future too, since they aren't really something people bother with anymore and things are pretty different with only 3 stages sometimes.

I don't think most people here even have any of the older trials (except perhaps TD, which probably would get just as little interest as the full version's scoring), and it doesn't seem practical to obtain them just to enter a challenge. So probably not.

As for more 2-stage/3-stage scoring, it'd be a possibility, but other than EoSD stages 1-3, where you get to spend all 7 lives you get without needing to conserve resources [adds idea to planning list that's now over 20 long, thanks everyone], would it vary enough from standard scoring?

[ARF]

#1 - Easy - ReimuC
ARF - 200 - 0.0% - Replay

Even sub 100 should be possible!

[chirpy13]

PCB borders might change to a quantity over quality thing if you can scrape up an extra border or two in exchange for better timed borders.  More aggressive graze milking things that might not otherwise be worth it could be a thing too since that 2000 points/graze would be a bit more noteworthy in a 3 stage game (ReimuB Easy/Normal WRs are only 204/207m at the end of Alice, 10% of clear).  I'm not too sure beyond that.  Maybe it wouldn't be all that different.  Upon reflecting though, You're probably right.  IN+ would probably not work out and PC98 is definitely out (MS wouldn't change at all, LLS would just be gross trying to die 8 times in 3 stages, let's not talk about SoEW).

[Arcorann]

(Replying here now that there's a thread for it)I don't think most people here even have any of the older trials (except perhaps TD, which probably would get just as little interest as the full version's scoring), and it doesn't seem practical to obtain them just to enter a challenge. So probably not.

What about PCB 0.06a? It has the old version of the cherry system as well, so it's guaranteed to be different.

[Wriggle]

#1 - Extra - ReimuC
Wriggle - 1474 - 0.440% - Replay

Take that Mino-chan. :V

[redlakitu]

#1 - Easy - ReimuC
navpirx - 662 - 0.020% - replay

Well, took me a fair bit of time and effort to get even that, but I've never even cleared SA Normal yet, so what do you expect? The run is probably full of hilarious mistakes, but I can't remember any of them at the moment. Also I don't trust myself enough to take on Utsuho's last spell card on my very last life, so there goes any hope for further improvement.

[ARF]

Messed around in the stage since I can't beat Koishi consistently anyway.

I had to bomb the blue slowspam fairies to get this, but since that comes down to luck you could possibly have 7 graze entering Koishi with full power with only one suicide. We talked about suiciding on Koishi's first spell to get some shotgun time in and cancel the lasers, if so then you could enter with 3.6 power anyway, without losing much I guess.

aaand some improvements

#1 - Easy - ReimuC
ARF - 175 - 0.0% - Replay

I played around in stage practice before doing this run, and from the looks of things everything in the game up to Okuu's penultimate spell can be ungrazed.

[Karisa]

Looking forward to seeing you reach the double digits.

Anyway, why aren't there any other submissions below 600? I'm pretty sure I saw a few people on IRC say they reached the 400s...

[LepLep]

Anyway, why aren't there any other submissions below 600? I'm pretty sure I saw a few people on IRC say they reached the 400s...

W-we're shy.... :blush:

[touhoumaniac]

#2 - hard - SanaeB
s - 86,992,190 - 3 - 0.000% - Replay

#1 - Easy - ReimuC
s - 709 - 0.070% - Replay

[Tsym]

SA #1 - Extra - ReimuC
Tsym - 1473 - 0.010% - Replay

Huh? What's that Wriggle? Did you think you were safe with your graze count? This result totally wasn't luck based at all  :derp:

This challenge was pretty fun. Most of your optimizations will come during Koishi though, and not during the stage, as sad as that may be. Several mistakes during this run, biggest one on Ancestor where I picked up more graze since I didn't speed kill it fast enough. I made it up with a super fast Genetics kill though. Also room for improvement on several of Koishi's non-spells, but the margin for error when suiciding for more power during Koishi is way too tight. I think the biggest killer during this run for me was Embers of Love, which added a lot of graze that I didn't want.

I might try this again later, but getting much lower would require planning your power through Koishi, which I don't feel like doing right now.

[Mino ☆]

Hahahaha, one grazepoint under. What are the odds?  :V

[Wriggle]

Oh wow. I'm only not that surprised because before getting 1474 I had tied my own 1602. :V

[Wriggle]

#1 - Extra - ReimuC
Wriggle - 1425 - 0.160% - Replay

Derped at the stage. My mom nearly ruined this run by calling me out during Superego lol. Looking forward a sub 1400.

Spoiler:

Tsym - 1424 - 0.010% - Replay :V

[Tsym]

#1 - Extra - ReimuC
Wriggle - 1425 - 0.160% - Replay

Derped at the stage. My mom nearly ruined this run by calling me out during Superego lol. Looking forward a sub 1400.

Spoiler:

Tsym - 1424 - 0.010% - Replay :V

Sub 1400? My good sir I suggest you try harder because:



This is what I'm on target for right now (If only I could stop screwing up Subterranean Rose and Philosophy of a Hated Person ).

[Wriggle]

dude how u so good

Spoiler:

I'm female btw, but "sir" is okay :v

[Tsym]

SA #1 - Extra - ReimuC
Tsym - 1318 - 0.000% - Replay

Welp. I'm at once kind of displeased since I know sub-1300 is possible, but I think that's for another time. Essentially all of my saved grazes were from bombing non-spells and suiciding for power to either bomb a non-spell or have a higher power going into a card that can take a while. I'm sure there's a better route to do it too, but this is my rudimentary method after doing all the power/lives math.

Incidentally, the sub-1300 in my run would have come from two major areas: 1st: a suicide right before Genetics which would have let me go into that with 3 power. Using that method you only need to loop around Koishi once before the pattern finishes, saving you some graze. I didn't do it because I got tired of dying somewhere in Genetics/Philosophy/Subterranean Rose as you have you perfect those cards if you do suicide. If you are confident enough to do all patterns from Embers of Love onwards with no lives left, bombing and then suiciding (to get back to 3.2 power) on the non-spell before Embers of Love will save you some graze too. 2nd: I totally screwed up Embers of Love, had to bomb it, and that ended up costing me like 50 graze or something stupid like that. That spell card is still where your run can go seriously wrong if you screw up once as the heart bullets continue bouncing around if you bomb, and you still get graze for the bullets spawning behind the big heart.

dude how u so good

Spoiler:

I'm female btw, but "sir" is okay :v

I'm sure that either you or Mino or really anyone with better execution skills than I could beat this handily. And hey there are probably more optimizations to be had yet that are waiting to be found!

Also apologies for the gender thing, that's a habit that I need to work on. Duly noted.

[Wriggle]

#1 - Extra - ReimuC
Wriggle - 1343 - 0.2% - Replay

Will leave this one for now. This route seems promising, but I should get a better suicide before Rorschach. I'm also getting more consistent at aggressive Rorschach. Maybe I'll get to match Tsym soon.

[Tsym]

SA #1 - Extra - ReimuC
Tsym - 1199 - 0.000% - Replay

Ha well. So much for sub 1300 being totally possible. Huge, huge, huge thanks to Wriggle who informed me of a trick for Philosophy of a Hated Person. Staying in the top left corner and bombing the yellow and red waves drastically reduces the graze you get during it. This trick might also be possible for blue, although that would be at the lower right hand corner due to how blue spawns (if I'm understanding it correctly). I didn't want to risk trying to do it for blue though during my run as you are kind of tight on resources by that point and I didn't know how many bombs I would need to get through yellow/red.

Anyway, I think this is probably one of the best runs that I will get using this route through the stage. I don't think there are any further really major optimizations to be had in this route as most of the remaining graze is coming from the spell cards, which can only be handled through speed killing, plus using this route taps out all of your resources, as you only get 4 extra lives to work with here (with 3 lives into Koishi). At this point the only time where you suicide during this route with extra power is right before Danmaku Paranoia, but I can't think of anywhere you can spend that extra power. You can move the suicide to the non-card after Paranoia, but I think that Paranoia gives you more graze than Id if you don't go in at high power. It could warrant additional experimentation though.

I did make quite a few minor mistakes during the run that probably gave me extra graze, but I'm quite happy with a sub-1200 score at the moment. I know you can get to Koishi with less graze (I've gotten as low as 14 with 4 power), but I find that's largely luck dependent as to how the small blue bullets spread during those two sections in the stage. I think Koishi moved a bit too erratically on Paranoia for me to properly speed kill her so that's some additional graze there, and I know I made several mistakes during Youkai Polygraph that added yet more graze. My Embers of Love this time around was decent, but there's potential for improvement there (I think that's largely luck dependent on how Koishi moves, but I could be wrong). And of course if you can bomb through the blue sections of Philosophy that would also save a fair chunk of graze. I think I'm pretty much done with this challenge for now though.

Can't wait for people to come in and push this down to 3 digits! I know at the very least that there are people here who can beat this score, so I can't wait to see how low the community can push this one!

[Karisa]

Nice Philosophy trick, particularly with the death respawn being right as Koishi changes phases.

At this point the only time where you suicide during this route with extra power is right before Danmaku Paranoia, but I can't think of anywhere you can spend that extra power.

I'm not sure if ReimuC's bomb is the right length for this, but have you tried bombing to clear the lasers in Koishi's first card? Those lasers give so much graze that it may be worth dealing with some extra aimed bullet phases in order to avoid a wave of lasers.

Looking forward to seeing how low this can get, too. (And to think including Extra in this challenge was originally an afterthought...)

[touhoumaniac]

#2 - normal - SanaeB
s - 72,930,210 - 3 - 0.000% - Replay

I'd like to point out that two of my scores are present on SA low graze challenge result list.

[Mero]

#1 - Easy - ReimuA
Mero - 589 - 0.08% - Replay

Meaning to do this for a while, but I couldn't because reasons  :V

So, interesting challenge, when I first saw it, it didn't surprise me that you considered using ReimuA a bad idea (I did as well), but I had an idea on who else would be a bad choice and I ended up with MarisaC. When I was done with her I thought "ok, ReimuA can't possibly be THIS bad, right?". And turns out ReimuA is actually pretty good at this (not on the level of ReimuC of course, but still pretty good)

A few notes on the replay:
-bombing is pretty straightforward but there are some particular spots for bombs:
   +before the dialog with Parsee to clear the first wave of her opener (because this one is always fired from the center)
   +just before clearing Satori's first spell to clear enough of the next nonspell and still be at full power for Yukari's spells (it prevents being at Lv 3 for BoWaP)
-Satori is not that bad, but you want to be at full power for BoWaP (it gives at least 30 graze on full power, and I don't think bombing for clearance is worth the power loss)
-If I didn't bomb Orin's last non, I would have delayed the suicides on her last spells and be at full power to bombs away the stage 6 midboss card
-I think if used correctly, ReimuA's gap ability can be a very effective way of avoiding graze on things like Parsee's nonspells without bombing

All that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if this could be pushed to the lower 500s (or even sub 500) by someone more comfortable with the "suicide for bombs" thing

[Апатия]

#2 - Normal - SanaeB
apathy - 93,849,940 - 3 - 0.0% - Replay
apathy - 100,367,780 - 3 - 0.0% - Replay

[Karisa]

Just a reminder that you only have until the end of this weekend to submit your replays! (If you've already done a run but didn't submit it because you were planning to improve it, you might want to submit it now!)

[Wriggle]

Okay, I included the replay link in my previous post. I didn't even try improving since I was focusing on scoring in this Extra instead, and fully dropped it after getting 1b. But I'm quite satisfied on how of a good use Tsym put in the Philosopher trick. :3

[Denpa Mark II]

#1 - Easy - ReimuC
FSL - 1474 - 0.050% - Replay

Not last!

[Karisa]

Looks like the first round is over. Congratulations to the winners, and thanks to everyone who participated regardless of skill level.

It seems SA low graze was popular. I've been told that's because it was simple to casually attempt. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

The next round has been posted-- have fun!

Note that I've decided to change the format a little. If the shot type isn't a separate category, it now goes in the second line rather than the first, since that's how I was organizing it in the rankings anyway.


Results archive:

#3 - Single-stage MoF grazing, no bombs

Time for something that's sort of the opposite of the previous challenge. Mountain of Faith normally has no graze counter, so most players have probably never tried grazing in it...

I tried to choose some stages I thought would be particularly interesting. Bombs are disallowed so the challenge isn't oriented around bomb invincibility (however, there's no restriction on using death invincibility, which is more limited).

- Graze as much as you can in MoF stage practice!
- Do not use bombs.
- Allowed stages: Normal stage 4; Normal stage 5; Lunatic stage 1; Easy stage 6
- This patch adds a graze counter to MoF.
- Don't forget that you need to divide your "high score" by 10 for your actual graze!

Format:
Challenge number - Difficulty - Stage
Player - Graze - Shot type - Slowdown - Replay

Example:
#3 - Normal - Stage 5
Sample - 5555 - ReimuA - 0.1% - Replay

Rankings:
Normal Stage 4
ARF - 20509 - ReimuB - Replay - Screenshot
S-TORA - 13004 - MarisaB - Replay Screenshot
s - 11291 - ReimuB - 0.190% - Replay

Normal Stage 5
ARF - 20558 - ReimuC - 0.0% - Replay
Mero - 15361 - ReimuB - 0.05% - Replay
s - 5590 - ReimuB - 0.280% - Replay

Lunatic Stage 1
ARF - 10004 - ReimuC - 0.00% - Replay
Mero - 7191 - ReimuC - 0.04% - Replay
s - 6079 - ReimuB - 0.210% - Replay

Easy Stage 6
Mero - 11478 - ReimuB - 0.01% - Replay
ARF - 10144 - ReimuC - 0.0% - Replay
s - 7842 - ReimuB - 0.180% - Replay


#4 - TD NBNT scoring

Many of the patterns in Ten Desires seem designed around risky point-blanking strategies, but it's almost always worth more points to use bomb/trance invincibility instead. What happens if you can't use those bombs and trances?

I've restricted this to the lower difficulties because this is intended to be a point-blanking challenge, not a survival challenge.

- Score as high as you can in TD, without bombing or using manual trances!
- Trances from dying are allowed. There's no restriction on what you can do during death trances (unlike some interpretations of NBNT that include "no shooting during trances").
- Easy and Normal allowed.

Format:
Challenge number - Difficulty
Player - Score - Shot type - Stage - Slowdown - Replay

Example:
#4 - Easy
Sample - 230,000,000 - Marisa - C - 0.2% - Replay

Rankings
Easy
S-TORA - 475,804,680 - Marisa - C - 0.36% - Replay
s - 80,821,010 - Reimu - 4 - 0.480% - Replay

Normal
[no entries]

Deadline: Sunday, August 11