Town Mafia (Game Over)

[Conqueror]

can you at least give the pretense that you're trying to scumhunt instead of just going not me over me? like even barebones one line reasoning? do you even have a reason for wanting shadoweh lynched?

i hate you all, did you know that

[Serela]

orite claiming vanilla

[Conqueror]

can someone not me look up the last time scum!serela claimed vanilla while he was being run up; i have to do something else real quick brb

[Conqueror]

actually serela just tell me yourself

the fact that the wagons are like this so close to deadline is annoying and sapping my motivation

im sitting in a room with no air conditioning and sweating while waiting for stuff to pop up here

post you jerks

[Vhaltz]

All excuses and still no trace of scumhunting. This is also not the first time that you fake not being able to get a big post out as scum so get lynched, scum Serela.

Cut by Conq last Serela!Scum I remember claimed JoaT but he had to do so to cover up for possible trackers or whatever since he had an active post-restricting role, all other games he's been scum in I'd have to read from beginning to end and cut yes it'd be a good idea for Serela to tell us himself.

He could not be just out of work and have talked this out with his buddies before posting and claiming since I posted the case about 3-4 hours ago and was already pushing it hard then, so I'm not that into buying the claim. Specially since it's D1 and there's no lynch/kill info for scum to go on which means they'd risk being CC'd if they claimed a power role.
I'm probably just going confirmation bias all over the place but.

[Conqueror]

##Unkill for now
Okay the last time he didn't claim something like VIG LOL (Gensokyo Holy War, Midnight Crew) or JOAT (C7D) or WATCHER (Graveyard) or COP (Adorable Game of Mafia) was in Darker than Black mafia in 2011, and he only claimed vanilla because he didn't want to let people know he was scum bulletproof or something trying to hammer a bomb. Oh there's FF9 where he was a scum neighbor but that doesn't really count as he made it to LYLO and won; I'm looking at early game claims when run up to lynch. Kamen Rider doesn't count either as he never made it to a claim. There are games further back but those are probably too old to be relevant at all.

I don't think scum!Serela would really care about being CC'd if he's going down. A VT claim will only make people want to lynch him more and at least a CC outs a PR for scum to kill.

Thinking about this a little.

[ActionDan]

what about wagoning raitaki.

[Vhaltz]

Oh wait I remember he was also scum in another game I read and he claimed vig followed by bulletproof next game saying it was a gambit. It was the one with GreyICE hosted by Hourai, Midnight Crew. He also claimed vig in Gensokyo Holy War, both claims ended up with him being lynched mercilessly so maybe he's learned and figured claiming vig wouldn't do him any good anymore?

Dunno, I just can't seem to put myself behind Town!Serela doing what he's been doing this game. He hasn't confirmed/justified his vote or even asked any questions that implied some sort of scumhunting at all throughout 60~ hours of gameplay.

Cut. I could backspace on the games but w/e putting it out as it is.

[Vhaltz]

what about wagoning raitaki.

That wouldn't give much information at all, I'm not reading him scum and I'm not even sure we'd have the votes to do it. Would rather lynch someone else.

Plus Conq for all I know you could've told him to claim VT so that you could save him from the lynch through claim meta. I was also looking through the games and only got two/almost three in the time that you got a fricking whole bunch. I figured I'd ignore the possiblity of lynching you this game because you'd end up getting killed sooner or later as a strong townie but that doesn't mean I'm sheeping you to the ends of the earth. Serela still reads scum despite the claim and could've been told to claim this by you or any other scumbuddy who knows what they're doing.

[Conqueror]

A Raitaki lynch would basically be a pure lurker D1 lynch; he has almost no content to speak of and few people have really talked about him.

Putting aside the obvious risk of trying to pull up 7 votes in 7 hours I'd have to want to lynch him over all the other current wagonees...which I dunno. His content post wasn't great but lynching him for it feels like an alignment crapshoot?

Vhaltz: Yeah I dunno, I don't like Serela's face either but I get the feeling he'd want to claim something given the high likelihood of him getting lynched with a vanilla claim especially given his lack of complete effort this game. He could just be really busy? Busyness isn't really alignment indicative so I dunno. I have a bad Serela reading record.

[Conqueror]

Cut by paranoia. Ahaha, I knew that would come up sooner or later. Yeah, I can't deny the possibility given that I'm the person pushing this argument, although given my past history being buddies with scum!Serela I wouldn't take the risk of trying to save him with a vanilla claim. I couldn't even save him in C7D when he claimed a PR and I was hard defending him the entire way with a post-restricted lurking townie as a counterwagon. ;-;

(me finding the games faster is because i at least have an inkling of what goes on in most games that are played here even if im not in them; also using the mafia archive here helps a lot)

[Vhaltz]

Raitaki has commented on his IRL issues and he'll be around in D2 and we'll poke him to death if he doesn't post enough content to make up for D1. I don't want to flip a coin on a lynch when I have scum right in front of me I want lynched.

I got the same feeling as I did back in Chelsea and the Seven Devils when I remembered he existed and pushed for his lynch. I also waffled towards the end like I did for a second with the claim thing but no fuck that he can't be town. If he were town and his post yesterday -hadn't worked out- he would've posted some waffles apologizing for not getting anything straight and tried to do something with his vote regardless. I just can't see Town!Serela anywhere. It's scum for sure and if not I will frown at him heavily in post game.

Cut I know, I was using the mafia archive too and that's why I'm baffled ._.

[Conqueror]

Pyoa Aaaa had at least the decency to make up a few cases and reads. Serela this game has given literally nothing. FFS he's sitting on a jokevote.

I don't know why I'm defending Serela anyway, it's not like I can say he isn't scummy, but I have a feeling and coupled with his claim I'm not sure he's actually scum.

I just can't see Town!Serela anywhere. It's scum for sure and if not I will frown at him heavily in post game.

Ah, you remind me of myself when I was still uninitiated to the ways of the world.  :colonveeplusalpha:

Cut I know, I was using the mafia archive too and that's why I'm baffled ._.

Get on my level and lurk more games.  :V

[WHMZakeri]

Dust Kick Slide
Validon98:    Shadoweh, BT, Serious Bananas (3)
Shadoweh:    Serela, Raitaki, Dormio, Affinity (4)
BBM:     Validon, ActionDan (2)
Serlea:    BBM Vhaltzo (2)

Not Voting: Conqueror

With 12 alive, it's takes 7 to decide the night kill.
There are 6.2 Hours left in the night.

[Vhaltz]

Raitaki's scum meta as far as I know after last game isn't as much making up excuses to not be here for a long period of time as it is posting once every 18-20~ hours with kinda sensical content but not enough to let people get a good read on him and therefore postponing judgement on him forever.

Also Serela commented he would be busy during D1 at the beginning of the game, but then deadline got extended and he made no comment at all on whether or not he would be busy during the last 24 hours iirc, so I figure he was just trying to not post and get by unnoticed.

I think that's enough chatter between us for now though, people will get back close to deadline and will have to read. I still want to lynch the hell out of Serela despite claim meta because claims can be a group decision whereas Serela was writing his own posts, and that's that. I don't even know what I want to do with my vote if it's not lynching Serela for being a scumlord because my reads on BBM and Shadoweh cling onto his flip at this point and Validon also seems like a crapshoot lynch. So unless I got like 10x better at mafia and could write a case on why BT sounds so scummy to me this game I don't think I want to vote anybody else. I guess a Shadoweh lynch could give information but uuuuuugh. I just want to lynch Serela first, her waving off Serela's growing wagon is not even close to how bad Serela is.

[Conqueror]

##Kill Serela

Okay I reread Shadoweh Serela Validon and BBM and I want this lynch the most atm. The weirdest thing I can find about Shadoweh is her sudden giving up on Validon at the end of the day. It seems out of character with how hard she was pushing his lynch all day for her to suddenly say she's not so sure he's lynchable anymore, throw up her arms and say she'll be back at deadline without commenting on major wagons on her other main suspects like BBM. The meta!case on Validon is weak but I can see where she's coming from with it so I'm conflicted on how scummy it is. The scummiest thing about Shadoweh pushing the Validon case is that it feels like picking on newbies.
Validon is posting more but I want to ask him why he isn't focusing on people other than BBM because it feels like he's doing it just because people like me asked him to. BBM isn't the other person in the game. Validon, what do you think about the other major wagons, for instance? I feel like Validon will be easier to read the more he posts though.
BBM I don't have anything more to say beyond what I said in my last few posts. I'm going to take a look at Touhou Nocfia for a bit I guess.
Serela has just done nothing. I don't know what to say, if anything can be said.

Worst case we lose a VT who can't be bothered to post.

It's 1 AM here and I need to wake up in the morning, although I'll likely miss deadline so after a few more posts I won't be back.

[ActionDan]

##KILL: SERELA

I'd also say the scum meta of raitaki will probably be different if he were scum this game than last game.  because... why would anyone rep their scum play 1 game ago.

[Conqueror]

Okay looking real quickly at BBM's posts in Touhou Nocfia where he was mafia (why does it stop at 8 pages when there are more posts? stupid sf forums) I guess they give off a different sort of impression from his play in this game? He seems more "together" and nitpicky as mafia I guess, although it's hard to tell because there's so little to go on in this game so far. I guess what huhwhat said here sorta fits BBM's play here. I'M TRUSTING YOU ON THIS ONE HUHWHAT YOU BETTER NOT FAIL ME.

Whatever, I'm done with this game for today and I need to sleep.

[Conqueror]

I guess I'll do this before I go for my own reference

Town:
Affinity
Vhaltz

Leaning Town:
ActionDan (gut)
BBM (via METAZ so pro)
Dormio (seems disinterested which is totally a towntell for him, but needs to post about more than one person)

Leftovers are null to scum. I've already talked about some about Validon Shadoweh Raitaki and Serela so let's go over BT and SB real quick.

SB, can you like write a concise summary of your reads because it's a pain to get a hold on what you're currently thinking with your current format. The attack on Vhaltz also bugs me to an extent because before I replaced into this game I decided that if I rolled scum I'd attack Vhaltz because Vhaltz was obvtown to me and yet a lot of the arguments he were using were questionable so I'd be able to generate a lot of fake content by harping on that, sorta like what Pesco did to Vhaltz in C7D.
I don't know what to say about BT. I don't really understand his angle on Validon so the conviction in the vote feels a bit like posturing . Apparently he's going to make a post soon though.
In any case if I'm alive tomorrow I'd want to look into these two further since I feel like they're coasting by with questionable content.

[BigBangMeteor]

TBH I'm not sure if you can even compare a game where I was not under thread-wide suspicion for most of the game to a game where I've been under suspicion almost from the get-go. It's been a while since I've been run up on D1 as scum. If you want to look at a case of that, Chilean Musician Mafia is probably a better game (though it's quite old).

Still kind of frustrated that people are saying that I kept twisting Raikaria's words when what I said looks like a correct interpretation to me. I don't think I was parking Raikaria either. I was consistently replying back to what he was saying. As for me giving up on going for his lynch, it was mainly because half the thread had the slot as super town, and I didn't want to spend time arguing more with that slot when it was just making me increasingly frustrated.

I don't normally think VT claims from people about to be lynched are scum, but Serela seriously hasn't done anything at all other than white knight me against his townread, and I still feel the most comfortable with his lynch.

Something about BT's play bothers me; I'm going to read his posts again.

Someone said at some point that if Serela flipped scum, they'd think Shadoweh was scum too. Could they explain that?

[Conqueror]

Shadoweh has a history of being able to mysteriously divine Serela's alignment in past games. Her waffling half-hearted defense just really reminds me of how Shadoweh dealt with her scumbuddy Serela in Gensokyo Holy War Mafia.

[Conqueror]

EBWOP: Also re: the way you treated Raikaria's slot; I'm biased for obvious reasons so we can just agree to disagree since I don't think you're lying about that regardless of your alignment.

Although fwiw I thought Raikaria's frustration with how people were attacking him over his gut vote were obviously coming from town before I replaced into the slot. I think even his scum game has more finesse than that. But that's not really relevant. I'm rambling so I really should sleep, night. Lynch Serela over the other candidates imo, gl fellow mafiates.

[Vhaltz]

I don't know how else to say this about Serela, I don't see much content in his posts but that's not really an indicator of whether he's scum or not. >.> Vhaltz why would you go from BBM HATE and saying Dan is weird to voting with BBM and Dan. Serela is always a good lynch easy enough to read when he posts reads and I agree not being able to point to a scumspect is a good lynching reason, just that even as scum he's usually tried to make a terrible reason to lynch someone by now. Usually one of his buddies. >:<

She basically postpones her lynch saying the following:
- he'll be a clear read later on -> he is already clearly scum now
- 10 hours from deadline too little time to lynch -> he had 2 votes while all other wagons had 3, this was not an excuse.

Plus it doesn't make sense when added to her later point in the post that says her scumspect is looking townie and it makes her depressed. If her top scumread stopped looking so scummy and she no longer has the conviction to follow up on him as The Priority then why would you handwave other wagons instead of considering them?

I dunno about meta because I haven't read that game Conq linked, but this is all pretty weird and could make for a scumbuddy attempt at softdefense to stop his growing wagon and let him live another day. Which is why she will be looked into further tomorrow when Serela flips informed minority.

[BigBangMeteor]

Okay, I thought BT's Raikaria and Validon votes were decent, but his other stuff (namely in 108) sort of bothers me.

The wording of his blurb on Raikaria in #108 felt kind of unnecessarily waffly. What's the point of saying "I think he's scummy because he has no quality scumhunting. Except he actually does have a little so I'm feeling better." I also don't really like his stance on me because he's pushing me while not really committing to a solid opinion on me. It feels kind of like cheerleading my wagon while not really tying himself that much to it. And what's the point of saying that SB's comments bug you but you don't see a point in pursuing it? That sort of statement is just so unnecessary. If you don't think there's enough in SB's VM comments to bother pursuing it, why even mention it?

[Vhaltz]

She basically postpones Serela's lynch saying the following

[SB]

First off, I'm not really the kind of player who explicitly states their reads all the time, but generally when I say that I find a couple of things by a person suspect then it means I don't like them. Right now I could lynch Dormio (or Vhaltz, but everyone else seems fixated that he's obvtown so ugh.) Shadoweh's explanation of why he's town in #137 doesn't really put me at ease because scum can put effort in just like town (I did it in the last mini game I played on my main site, and only really started getting suspected because of PoE.) I'll lay off voting them for now since it's near deadline I think, but yeah.

Responding to VM's #138, I viewed a lot of your post as kind of fluffy, yeah. And yeah, I said I was ignoring it because I couldn't concentrate on big walls of text at the time, so that was my bad. Something I will say though is that the reaction test was bad and wish people would stop doing that even if you are town because how does making yourself look scummy deliberately help the town? You could've just said I think that BBM is the most suspicious because of this rather than "pretending" to be fixated on it. ...bleh. Actually, thinking about it most bad reaction tests I've seen recently have been from townies (not to say scum can't do it too) so I'm not sure what to think on it anymore. I guess it makes me feel a little better on you, especially since you stated it was a test when you weren't in danger of being lynched at all. Would rather that you stop using meta so heavily since people's play develop and change over time, for example your Dormio suspicion is literally that he reads differently to (what I assume to be) a game where he was town. Not even that he's exerting a scumtell. Waffling a lot on VM now, ugh.

ActionDan really needs to site his shit in #150 since he's just abruptly calling Validon town and has to be prodded by Dormio to do it. Later on (#154) he calls BBM scummy for debating and defending himself from a weak case, which is pretty dumb imo.

Could probably go for a Serela lynch although I have pretty much nothing to add onto VM's case in #160 that comes to mind right now. Apart from the "this is going to look weird" bit which makes me a little uneasy.

And I need to go to pick up dinner, wonderful. Should finish up when I get back. Off the top of my head I could probably support lynches on ActionDan, Validon and Serela. Not sure what to think on VM anymore, and Dormio's latest posts are improving a little imo.

[Validon98]

I HAVE RETURNED.

Looking back, Conqueror mentioned looking at other wagons. Right now they are Shadoweh and Serela. My thoughts are brief and as follows:

Shadoweh: Other people have noticed the whole "I'm kind of dropping the Validon case" thing. I mean, I honestly have no idea where that came from. Shadoweh, if you were so intent on having me lynched, then why are you backing off now? I also don't like how she's been using meta on me, but that's a minor issue because it's From My Point Of View. And then there's the whole "I'm not going to vote Serela because too few votes" thing. Like, it's like she doesn't want to consider other wagons or anything. She's just parking her vote on me in the meanwhile. Suspicious, but she's only one of the two wagons.
Serela: Yeeeeeeah... he's done pretty much nothing in any way, shape, or form. I know I was on BBM's case for seeming scummy, but at least he's defended himself. Serela just seems all "meh" to me about everyone's accusations. I don't like it. Not at all. And seeing as he hasn't done much, lynching him is not really an issue, plus, yes, association reads on Shadoweh will result.

##Unkill
##Kill: Serela

[WHMZakeri]

Speeding Gumball
Validon98:    Shadoweh, BT, Serious Bananas (3)
Shadoweh:    Serela, Raitaki, Dormio, Affinity (4)
Serela:    BBM, Vhaltzo, Conqueror, ActionDan, Validon98 (5)

Serela is at K-2

With 12 alive, it's takes 7 to decide the night kill.
There are 4.0 Hours left in the night.

[Vhaltz]

Could I get confirmation from people who are going to be around at deadline? Just in case, don't want a NL like last game's happening.

[BT]

I'm at #192. My post will probably be shit. Will probably jump on Serela. Will probably be around to secure any lynch.