Power of the ladies: How do they work?

[ToyoRai]

I wouldn't say all fairies, otherwise you will be hard pressed to explain the 3 fairies of light.

Admireably yeah, but they still draw poer from their respectful things. Sunny Milk is weaker when Sun isn't visible, Luna Child is same expect with the Moon and Star Sapphire doesn't need to worry about the time of the day since she draaws powers from the stars. And I guess Sunny Milk has light control with ability to refractuation of light.

[Imosa]

Probably because of the Hourai Elixir. That and Kaguya has the Dragon theme.

The Hourai Elixir is the obvious answer but that would then suggest that Kaguya would also undergo some change, which didn't seem the happen. You say she has  a dragon theme but I havn't noticed this.

Youkai also have abilities unrelated to their existence. For example, Medicine and Kogasa.
Komachi is not a youkai.

Medicine's origins are a bit mysterious but she was supposedly discarded in a field of poisonous flowers. Medicine has been speculated to be a Tsukumogami like Kogasa, and Kogasa could have an origin that would link her to her "power".
I don't really know what youkai is right now, but she was mentioned in the post I was replying too and I figured her powers originated through a similar mechanism that I was trying to explain. 

Yes, it is a term, but it is a monster for that term. So, you have youkai of falling asleep when you least expect to. And youkai of losing track of time or random things like that.

I feel like you made at least one mistake in this sentence so I'm not sure what you're saying. "it is a monster for that term"? I do remember the Murphy's youkai though from SoPM, which it looks like you're describing.

I wouldn't say all fairies, otherwise you will be hard pressed to explain the 3 fairies of light.

I wouldn't be surprised if a fairy's power isn't clearly linked to the natural phenomenon it reflects. I mean Lily White exists and while spring doesn't announce that it's hear in any particular way, it sure does seem like things know when Spring arives. Sunny Milk is pretty clear, refraction of light being a natural phenomenon. Luna Child and Star Sapphire are trickier.
Personally, I like the idea of faeries being natural phenomenon, so much. I'm willing to overlook apparent contradictions, saying they were for the sake of story telling. It's like ZUN's own version of gnome theory.

[Drake]

I'm just reading the wiki here, which has "Eternal youth and immortality, resistance to and manipulation of fire". In any case, she's hardly the only example.

The wiki lists it as an observation; it's never formally stated. So, saying she specializes in fire magic because it's listed, is mistaken to begin with. It was just a small quip though.

My understanding is "Youkai" is a superset (so, a genus or family rather than a species), encompassing oni and tengu and kappa and such, in the same way the term "dog" encompasses a large variety of breeds. As such, characters who are listed simply as "youkai" under the species tab is the same as listing your pet as a dog; the implication is the pet is a type of dog. In the post you're replying to, I was saying the individuals with a power that doesn't seem linked to their species could belong to >>a<< species of youkai that possess arbitrary powers (some catch-all breed of humanlike supernatural beings), not that youkai is a species in and of itself.

And as I said, saying youkai has anything to do with a regular biological classification system, or even that youkai is even something you can categorize as "types" at all, isn't accurate. Tengu, Kappa, and Oni I would call species of youkai, but youkai itself I would not consider a level above "species" in the same manner.

In any case, proposing that each youkai in the series with a different power each belong to a separate species is a bit weird, in my opinion; it'd suggest that either the characters aren't nearly as unique in terms of their abilities as one would expect (what with a whole race of peers behind the scenes and all), or that we have dozens of species that include only a single member.

Both may be true. We have nice big societies of some youkai, not coincidentally being the same youkai you'd call species, but we also have many solo youkai. One important thing is that tengu and such have historically been said to have a sort of society just as humans do, rather than them existing as lone youkai. The legends themselves naturally have some youkai stories turn into a society and species simply because of how common they are and how they usually physically interact with humans in some way.
However I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with any particular ability of a character. Their abilities are only tied to their "species" if the species is said to have some ability; not the other way around. We don't have actual "species" of youkai being created because of their stated abilities.


Saying something or someone is a "youkai", classification-wise, is much like saying someone is a character from a novel. Are there different sub-classifications of these? Sure, there are characters from mystery novels, characters from romance novels, characters from science-fiction novels, etc. But these say nothing about who the characters are. Building up from each individual character, they could be sassy, they could be brave, or kind-hearted, as an individual with their own traits. They could be a detective, a police officer, a chef, and this might be considered their "species". As a chef, they probably have some skills at cooking; you could say this is their ability, that is determined by species (mind the real-life backwards logic). That ability might not be unique to the species, and perhaps they have other abilities unrelated to their species. But all that being said, them being a chef or whatever has nothing to do with them being a character from a novel, even though "character from a novel" is an overarching umbrella. You could say they were a detective in a mystery novel, and yet them being a detective and having sleuthing skills is fundamentally unrelated to them being a character from a novel. You could by comparison say a god is a character from a TV show, and a human is a person in real life.

This analogy is very spacious and isn't quite accurate, I'm just trying to make the point that youkai, as a classification, is unrelated to that youkai's species despite being a superclass (also ignoring that for meta reasons a character is considered a youkai because they're some sort of concept from a mythological story).

[Starxsword]

The Hourai Elixir is the obvious answer but that would then suggest that Kaguya would also undergo some change, which didn't seem the happen. You say she has  a dragon theme but I havn't noticed this.

This is mentioned in Ghost Team's dialogue.

Route A
Reisen: I can't believe this. You're far stronger than I thought...
Yuyuko: Next up, herbal dishes. And that's the end of it, too. Unfortunately, it's not a dragon after all, though.

Herbal most likely refers to Eirin. Route B mentions that the final course is at hand. Final course, being Dragon dish.
This is also where you get the idea that Yuyuko is exceptionally perceptive, more so than Yukari. Her team, being the only route to know ahead of time who the final boss is.

I feel like you made at least one mistake in this sentence so I'm not sure what you're saying. "it is a monster for that term"? I do remember the Murphy's youkai though from SoPM, which it looks like you're describing.

What I mean is if there is something strange that can't be explained, there is a youkai that does it. Youkai isn't really just the strange happenings, it is the monster behind the strange happenings.

Medicine's origins are a bit mysterious but she was supposedly discarded in a field of poisonous flowers. Medicine has been speculated to be a Tsukumogami like Kogasa, and Kogasa could have an origin that would link her to her "power".

Youkai are usually description of what they do or what they are, not necessarily their power. Kogasa does not have any real abilities. Neither does Kisume, the bucket youkai. Kisume, being one of the more terrifying youkai around. Medicine is generally referred to as a doll youkai, but you can refer her to as a poison youkai too, both correctly describe her. Medicine definitely does not have the ability to manipulate dolls, for instance.

I mean Lily White exists and while spring doesn't announce that it's hear in any particular way, it sure does seem like things know when Spring arives. Sunny Milk is pretty clear, refraction of light being a natural phenomenon. Luna Child and Star Sapphire are trickier.

None of the 3 fairies of light are nature based. They are based on the sun, moon and stars.

[Drake]

The underlying point there is that despite fairies being manifestations of nature, they don't necessarily have to be specific manifestations of a particular occurrence or event in nature. They don't necessarily have to represent anything, nor should they necessarily have the ability to do anything special in regard to that theme. It just so happens that the ones we're more familiar with are based on some specific phenomena and have a themed ability of sorts. It just makes sense to give them something special if they're going to be a recurring character.

[ToyoRai]

I guess returning back to who's powers tie to their existence, Murasa's ability is listed bo be ability to cause shipwrecks and drowning are pretty much cause of her being a funayuurei, who sink ships for their existence.

[haoreos2]

@Drake: I don't really disagree with any of that, so I think the problem is probably in how I worded it.

To reiterate:
Since the term youkai encompasses most of the supernatural beings in the series, characters like Yukari or Yuuka who (AFAIK) don't fit into any existing type of creature in Japanese mythology or folklore are listed as youkai (in the broad, classification sense).
These characters have some listed power or skill, which may or may not originate from what they are rather than who they are.
As such, two stances people often seem to take on the matter assuming the "what they are" stance are as follows: either there is a single species of generic supernatural being which functions like marvel mutants (each member gets a random and arbitrary power), or each such character belongs to an unspecified species of their own from which their powers originate, hence "flower youkai" or "border youkai".

Given this, I prefer the idea that these characters don't derive their abilities from their species at all, and whichever one they belong to is irrelevant in this context; rather, whatever they are, they simply specialize in whatever suits them, and that is then listed as their power.
(Obviously this wouldn't include individuals like Cirno or Letty who are based off some existing mythological creature known for that trait or power)

[Clarste]

Well, I think youkai are a bit different because they're youkai. Not that "youkai" is a species or anything. Frankly, it's way more different than that. It's more like they're not even animals, or even alive. "Youkai" as a classification goes back much further than genus or family. Anyway, while they certainly have some level of individuality I don't really think a youkai can be separated from its power, since their power usually defines them as individuals. Yukari can learn as much onmyouji as she wants, but she'll always be a border youkai.

This is not the case for humans or youkai magicians though. I think it's notable that every single magician in the series (Marisa, Alice, Patchouli and Byakuren) is listed as having the exact same power: to use magic. Then they have a parenthetical note about what they specialize in (light/heat, dolls, elements, body enhancing). This seems to be exactly the paradigm you imagine as applies to everyone else, but the fact that magicians are singled out this way implies it's not.

[Fonzi]

None of the 3 fairies of light are nature based. They are based on the sun, moon and stars.

Excuse me? What makes you think that the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are not a part of nature? Everything in the universe that isn't man-made is nature. Just because it isn't on Earth does not exclude it from nature. Even Lily White's power is nature related, for the cycle of changing seasons is a natural phenomenon. And while you may think that the Moon does not radiate any light, just reflects the sunlight, that reflection too is a part of nature. However, with some youkai, their abilities are based on human misunderstanding of natural phenomena, such as belief that the Moon actually shines or that the mountain echo is a result of someone shouting back.

[Sagus]

Youkai seems to simply signify "beings created from human imagination". Their abilities don't really have to have any logical pattern other than exactly what humanity imagined them as having.

"Youkai" also doesn't encompass all supernatural beings; Lunarians aren't classified as youkai, for example, and Mamizou says that the Chupacabra is an uma instead of a youkai (although that could simply be a latin american equivalent to youkai. Since it's literally the feminine form of "one" in portuguese, I'm having difficulty finding the meaning of the term as it's intended there)

[Prime32]

By some definitions a youkai doesn't even have to be an entity; it can be an event, like odd weather patterns.

Mamizou says that the Chupacabra is an uma instead of a youkai (although that could simply be a latin american equivalent to youkai. Since it's literally the feminine form of "one" in portuguese, I'm having difficulty finding the meaning of the term as it's intended there)

She says it's a U.M.A. (Unidentified Mysterious Animal). In other words, a cryptid.

[Sagus]

She says it's a U.M.A. (Unidentified Mysterious Animal). In other words, a cryptid.

Ah, the translation I read didn't have the dots, so it didn't look like an acronym. Thanks.

[Clarste]

Ah, the translation I read didn't have the dots, so it didn't look like an acronym. Thanks.

Acronyms don't have dots, by definition. The main problem here was that the font I use is in all-caps anyway, so you can't tell the difference between UMA and uma. Eventually I settled on both using a different font for it so it stands out and putting a translation note page at the end. Actually it kind of surprised me how many people are unfamiliar with the term (which is a real term in English too), but I probably watch too much anime.

If you missed the translation note page, you probably read an early draft version that wasn't meant to be distributed publicly.

[Sagus]

If you missed the translation note page, you probably read an early draft version that wasn't meant to be distributed publicly.

Yeah, the place I read it didn't have the translation notes. Thanks for the info.

[Starxsword]

Excuse me? What makes you think that the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are not a part of nature? Everything in the universe that isn't man-made is nature. Just because it isn't on Earth does not exclude it from nature. Even Lily White's power is nature related, for the cycle of changing seasons is a natural phenomenon. And while you may think that the Moon does not radiate any light, just reflects the sunlight, that reflection too is a part of nature.

You are right, I incorrectly went about this.

"Youkai" also doesn't encompass all supernatural beings; Lunarians aren't classified as youkai, for example, and Mamizou says that the Chupacabra is an uma instead of a youkai (although that could simply be a latin american equivalent to youkai. Since it's literally the feminine form of "one" in portuguese, I'm having difficulty finding the meaning of the term as it's intended there)

Well... Lunarians are humans, so they are an exception. The term Youkai encompasses pretty much all supernatural beings. However, it is generally referenced as a smaller set. So, usually, ghosts and yousei aren't considered as Youkai. I think Gods, Celestials, and Hermits do not fall under the term Youkai, but even this, I am unsure about.

Here is the reference about Lunarians being humans, http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Third_Chapter. This is based on the assumption that the sage and those he took with him are human.

However, there was a sage who realized that the impurity was stealing life from all living things. It is said that while watching the full moon hanging in the sky over the ocean, this sage became determined to free themselves from the impure Earth.
As if moving from living in the sea to the earth, or from the earth to the sky, this sage left the Earth and took up residence on the moon. This sage is the founder of the lunar capital, the lord of the night and of the lunar capital, Tsukuyomi.

[Sagus]

I'm aware that Lunarians are (or at least originally were) human,; but as they are immortal, incredibly powerful, and live on the moon, I'd say that they qualify as "supernatural creatures", as in, "things that us humans would consider to be the stuff of legends".

[ToyoRai]

This might be bit spread out question, but do you people think some of character's powers might have some sort of historical background? Not counting in Miko and Tojiko, the latter being the one which got me asking about this after finding about where her powers come from.

[Starxsword]

Not really, it only applies a select few I think. I mean Remilia having the fate ability, but what does that have to do with her background? Or Yuyuko with the death ability? Or Kaguya with her time ability.

Yuyuko's dad was a poet and he died on a tree, so she has powers similar to the tree? it doesn't really add up.

Some characters do have powers related to their background, but they are youkai, so that's somewhat a given. Nue, having the unknown ability.

[TrueShadow]

Tojiko's ability is a generic "species" ability I think. I think there's a legend in Japan that says thunders are caused by angry ghosts, which Tojiko was one (before she finds it actually pretty nice to be a ghost anyway)

[Drake]

Just a small correction, she pretty quickly found out that a ghost body was nice and convenient. She was first a vengeful spirit because of her grudge towards humans, which (by virtue of being a vengeful spirit) granted her thunder abilities that evolved into actual lightning abilities. It's only recently that she's been gradually losing her grudge against the various humans, and she'll eventually settle down as a "regular ghost that causes lightning" by discarding the "vengeful" part.

[Imosa]

This is mentioned in Ghost Team's dialogue.

Route A
Reisen: I can't believe this. You're far stronger than I thought...
Yuyuko: Next up, herbal dishes. And that's the end of it, too. Unfortunately, it's not a dragon after all, though.

Herbal most likely refers to Eirin. Route B mentions that the final course is at hand. Final course, being Dragon dish.
This is also where you get the idea that Yuyuko is exceptionally perceptive, more so than Yukari. Her team, being the only route to know ahead of time who the final boss is.

Is that it. Alright, I guess, but that's REALLY not a lot to go off of. We're not exactly short on content involving Kaguya, so has this seriously not come up anywhere else. Maybe Yuyuko's comment can be interpreted differently?

What I mean is if there is something strange that can't be explained, there is a youkai that does it. Youkai isn't really just the strange happenings, it is the monster behind the strange happenings.

Which comes first, the strange happening or the monster behind the strange happening?

Youkai are usually description of what they do or what they are, not necessarily their power. Kogasa does not have any real abilities. Neither does Kisume, the bucket youkai. Kisume, being one of the more terrifying youkai around. Medicine is generally referred to as a doll youkai, but you can refer her to as a poison youkai too, both correctly describe her. Medicine definitely does not have the ability to manipulate dolls, for instance.

I'm still not sure you can say something like a youkai's powers are unrelated to its existence. Sure there are apparent exceptions but there's also a lot we just don't know about individual youkai.

[Drake]

Which comes first, the strange happening or the monster behind the strange happening?

They're one in the same.

I'm still not sure you can say something like a youkai's powers are unrelated to its existence. Sure there are apparent exceptions but there's also a lot we just don't know about individual youkai.

It's more that the "ability" of the youkai is just not inherent just from what they are, but what they are can influence an ability they may have. It's a Ability implies Characteristic relationship rather than a Characteristic implies Ability relationship.

[Starxsword]

I'm still not sure you can say something like a youkai's powers are unrelated to its existence. Sure there are apparent exceptions but there's also a lot we just don't know about individual youkai.

Usually, a youkais existence is tied to their action. Parsee, bridge patrol, Kisume, well youkai, Rumia, darkness, Letty, snow, etc. A youkai's ability helps them do that specific action, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that action. Kisume has no ability, since she just pops out of a well and decapitates you or something. That doesn't really require an ability to do.
For some youkai, they are highly related, because well, how do you cause darkness without having an ability to do it? But for others, not really, like the blank face youkai, no real ability needed, since she just has a blank face.

[Imosa]

Usually, a youkais existence is tied to their action. Parsee, bridge patrol, Kisume, well youkai, Rumia, darkness, Letty, snow, etc. A youkai's ability helps them do that specific action, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that action. Kisume has no ability, since she just pops out of a well and decapitates you or something. That doesn't really require an ability to do.
For some youkai, they are highly related, because well, how do you cause darkness without having an ability to do it? But for others, not really, like the blank face youkai, no real ability needed, since she just has a blank face.

Yeah, that seems fine.
I guess, for Kisume I could say she has the ability to "pop out of a well and decapitate you or something" but that wouldn't really be much of an ability.

[Sagus]

Kisume does have an ability. It's stated on her profile: "dropping will-o'-the-wisps". The description of what this actually means is weird on the wiki ("It is to literally drop will-o'-the-wisps from the objective that is on top of her head"). but I guess it's something akin to dropping fire ("It probably comes from her species as tsurubebi (釣瓶火, lit. "well-bucket fire")") or random stuff ("Her spell cards have many that drop danmaku vertically, which would be the specialty of her species") on people.

[Starxsword]

I see, I forgot what her ability was. Does that help her nature? I wonder why she has that ability?

Yeah, dropping on top of people is what she does and the collecting of heads.

[Failure McFailFace]

WARNING: Massive post ahead. Read at your own risk.


I posted in this thread a few weeks ago, mentioning that SanaeB in UFO broke the fourth wall by mentioning "amulets with "P" and "point" on them." They're (very obviously) the Power and Point Box items that you collect.

And Gensyoko is filled with diffused magic everywhere, right?

So, the Power and Point Boxes are concentrated forms of 2 kinds of Gensyoko magic: Power and Passive. There are also 3 other kinds of magic: Faith, Spell, and Life.



Power magic explains how the player characters are able to sustain their options for (essentially) the entire game.
To use Power magic, one must collect any stray Power Boxes, which are immediately absorbed into the body upon contact of animated flesh. If one has these boxes absorbed into the body, then gets hit by danmaku, then the Power Boxes are literately knocked out of said person.

The boxes themselves are essentially "antennae," if you will. They gather up Power magic from the surrounding air, and distribute it into the options of said player character. A small Power Box is 1/100 of a Large Power Box, which collects the magic itself. The large Power Boxes that are dropped (from Kogasa in TD, Nueball in UFO, etc.) are already assembled "antennae," and only require collection to use. All of the options (Ying-yang orbs, mini-hakkeros, cards, etc.) hold the same amount of power: 1.00, or a full Large Power Box.

This only applies for the games from UFO on, however. The EoSD, PCB, and IN Power Boxes are much different than the UFO Power Boxes.  The reason is, right after the Moriya Shrine moved in, the diffused Power magic in the air became disturbed, and Small Power Boxes' Power magic stores shrank to 0.01, and they clumped into groups of 5, thus making the MoF and SA small Power boxes. Meanwhile, the Large Power Boxes shrank the same way, but became equivalent to 1 Small Point Box in EoSD, PCB, and IN. MoF and SA were the transitioning periods, while the Power magic and Boxes were settling down to the current system of Power today.

A note on Power boxes. You know that if you have the max amount of Power needed and you collect more Power, it gets converted to a fair amount of points? Well, Power magic, when it gets absorbed into the body and you have all of your options, gets automatically converted to Passive magic.



The next type of magic in Gensyoko is Passive. Passive magic is the only magic that can be calculated. The way it's calculated is different for each year, due to fluctuations in the Passive magic supply level.

Passive magic is, when calculated, is what we call "points." Grazing, collecting Point and Power Boxes, hitting and killing enemies, and other actions collects Passive magic. Passive magic is everywhere in Gensyoko, but it serves little use. It has only one physical form, the Point Box, and is only concentrated in said box. Passive magic's uses are:

• As a benchmark for seeing how many points you should get for solving an incident
• For score competitions
• For hoarding

And a few other little-use uses.

The only time Passive magic had a true use was in EoSD, PCB, IN, and MoF. In PCB and IN, the physical collection of certain amounts of Point Boxes gave you Life magic, a.k.a. lives. In EoSD and MoF, certain amounts of calculated Passive magic (points) gave you more Life magic.

Due to a quirk in the way Passive magic spreads, in time of incident, the closer you are to the location of an incident, the more concentrated the Passive magic is. If the Passive magic becomes concentrated enough, all items within a certain area (1 screen) are sucked to the player character, along with the Passive magic being more concentrated in the Point Boxes.



The third-to-last type of magic is Faith. It is a highly complex magic that is intertwined with Passive magic, and is required to power the gods themselves, youkai, and shrines with their appropriate shrine god(s) and shrine maiden. It has 2 physical forms: Regular (star-shaped), and Small (circle-shaped).

Faith is the physical embodiment of humans' and youkai's prayers to the player character. It appears when you kill enemies, cancel out bullets with a spell card or deplete a bosses life meter, etc. Faith, when absorbed into the body, increases the concentration of Passive magic in Point Boxes for a short amount of time. After the timer runs out, the Passive magic leaks out of Point Boxes until the concentration is back at default levels (500,000 points each).

During the Moriya Shrine Conspiracy and the Geyser Incident (you know what I mean), having the maximum amount of Power that can fill your options converts Power (due to Power overflow) to Faith. But in the Geyser Incident, Faith doesn't have a timer to rush you, due to the Passive magic being trapped in the cave the Player Characters were going into.



The second-to-last magic is Spell magic. It's the magic required to create danmaku, spell cards, give power to magicians' spells (youkai or human), among other actions. It is essential for magic-based danmaku, and all of it is trapped in Gensyoko. This explains why we Outside World humans (including the one writing this post) can't do danmaku in real life.

There is nothing else to say here.



The final magic Gensyoko has is Life magic. It's required to have some amount of life magic in one's body in order to stay alive. Life magic very often comes in fragments, but there are some exceptions (EoSD, PCB, IN, and MoF). Much rarer than the fragments are full pieces of Life magic. As usual, the Life Shards and Life Boxes (or Stars, or Hearts, bepending on the game) are absorbed into the body on contact, allowing one more hit by danmaku if you have a full Life Box. If you have no more Live Boxes on hand, and you get hit, the Player Character simply doesn't have the energy to continue, and just heads home. If you use a Continue, the player gets the strength again to move on, thus receiving 2 Life Boxes in the process.



I'm not going to explain anything else. My hands have been typing for 3 hours straight now, and I can't wait to rest.  :V

[TrueShadow]

^ I really like that post...

To add:
The Fragments of the Flying Vault in UFO also contain such powerful magic to affect the magics. Faith, Spell, and Life magic are absorbed into each pieces, and they also affect Power and Passive magic. Individually, they don't matter much, but when three fragments are put together, the magic activates, causing the fragment to absorb all power and passive magic nearby. By destroying the activated fragments, you can then release the Spell/Life magic trapped inside. Depending on the fragments, they also convert some of Power/Passive magics onto Life or Spell magic.

Meanwhile in TD, the spirits gather Faith, Spell, and Life magic inside themselves, which is why there are only Power and Point boxes.

In Fairy Wars, Life magic doesn't matter since Fairies are immortal, and the game is over when Cirno becomes unmotivated anymore. Cirno likes freezing a lot, so having a lot of stuff frozen makes her more motivated. However, unknown to herself, her ice can also absorb Power and Spell magic in the air, hence why she gets stronger/get more Bombs when she freeze lotsa stuff.

[Starxsword]

I'm not quite sure the need to explain this, this looks more like game play and story segregation.

[TrueShadow]

Well, it's fun, though.