Author Topic: Utsuho's Third Leg: Splitting Open the Proxy-God's Origins  (Read 19324 times)

Imosa

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Utsuho's Third Leg: Splitting Open the Proxy-God's Origins
« on: March 18, 2013, 06:43:35 PM »
The story behind Utsuho Reiuji(Okuu)'s "third leg" has been bothering me for quite some time.
A while ago I remember reading something, the wiki or perhaps the wikia, about Okuu or something related to Okuu(it was a long time ago). It say said that Okuu's 3 legs represented 3 attributes of nuclear power. Her left leg, encased in concrete, a reference to Chernobyl, represented fission, her right leg, orbited by an "electron", represented fusion, and her right arm encased by a hexagonal prism represented control. I was very happy with this. It was a good way of representing the 3 legged crow, a good set of things to associate with each leg, and I really liked how it referenced mankind's role the nuclear age. It got even better when I learned this was all a plot by Kanako who wanted Okuu to control a nuclear power plant. I even entertained the idea that the rod was a mechanical device and Okuu's fingers are in the control rod, constantly operating a series of pulleys to adjust her power output, and that of the furnaces of hell. Something that would take so much of her concentration, that she came off as stupid. Okuu's design was brilliant to me and she became my favorite character. However, a number of canon sources are beginning to make me think my interpretation may not just be different from other people's but down right false.
The wiki calls the third leg "a device reminiscent of a nuclear control rod" which is true but doesn't actually mean it's a control rod. The bigger problem however comes from a later paragraph.
On the Interview of Cara☆Mel‎ vol.8, ZUN mentioned that he tried to keep her from being indecent during the design process by adding a cannon on her arm instead of having an additional leg, thus solving the analogy of the third leg of the Yatagarasu.
He calls it a cannon right there, so that kinda puts an end to discussion, and Okuu's arm is a gun.
Does anyone share my interpretation of Okuu's third leg, not being just a gun but a control rod? Is there any canon to support my interpretation?

The following may be a bit more of a rant and assumes that ZUN hasn't just outright said that the third leg is a gun and nothing more. I'm going to try a personal appeal, as to why my interpretation is better then considering the third leg as a canon, and why we should try to interpret the canon to follow something more along the lines of my idea. That may sound a lot more twisted then I mean it too. I don't mean to say canon is wrong, just misinterpreted.
First, this doesn't sit too well with Kanako's plan to produce a nuclear power plant. Control is key in a nuclear power plant because, if things go wrong, they tend to go really wrong, and so it makes sense for her to make controlling this power plant a key point in her plan. Especially considering that Okuu isn't the brightest operator and might not be able to regulate these things with just hear head. The solution was to make the third leg a simpler interface for Okuu to control her massive power. Perhaps one of the worst ideas Kanako could have would be to make a key point of her plan giving the bird brained operator of massive power a gun with which she could use to channel energy into a life ending laser.
Second, considering the third arm to be a control mechanism doesn't stop Okuu from pointing it at things and shooting lasers. All we have to do is say that Okuu is manipulating her power to focus energy at the tip of the control rod and then releasing it in a controlled direction. The only difference is that now, the rod itself isn't just a gun that fires lasers.
Third, arm cannons are dumb. No really. Compare holding a gun in your hand, with replacing your lower arm with a gun. Without your writ, you louse a whole degree of motion. In order to deliver an accurate shot you need to manipulate this hulking thing on your arm into place. How inconvenient is that?
Finally, I just think that the third leg being an arm cannon as appose to a control rod just lacks elegance. Guns, weapons, for the most part, these things are meant to hurt things. Is that really all that we, as fans and as people, can think of? Nuclear power is a hugely helpful tool that would revolutionize the world. To reduce it to just a simple weapon is unimaginative and barbaric.
If you agree with my interpretation and assuming ZUN hasn't just outright said the third leg is a gun and nothing more, the least you can do is stop referring to the thing on Okuu's arm as an "arm cannon". Call it a "control rod" or the "third leg". Hopefully some day, my interpretation will catch on more. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:56:16 PM by Imosa »

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2013, 06:49:46 PM »
Isn't it called a "control rod" in Soku? Or was that a slightly liberal translation?
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2013, 07:03:11 PM »
I'm not sure how much convenience or practicality holds water for Touhou fighting, tbh :U

That being said, I think people just call it an arm cannon because it's easy to call it that.
I would like to believe most of us know that it's a control rod, but it's served its uses as a cannon in Soku - people thought it was cool so we just kind of stuck with it?
While I agree with you, this is not really a big deal. I feel like it's akin to mispronouncing Cirno or something.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2013, 11:21:54 PM »
samus aran would like to have a word with you

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2013, 11:30:08 PM »
I would like to believe most of us know that it's a control rod, but it's served its uses as a cannon in Soku - people thought it was cool so we just kind of stuck with it?
Even in Soku it didn't have an actual barrel; she just focused energy at its tip. People were depicting it as an arm cannon long before Soku though.

Zil

Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2013, 11:47:50 PM »
I would say, just from looking at the design of the thing, that ZUN was definitely going for some kind of "arm cannon" look. I think that's what would come to mind for most people, or at least for video game nerds who are already familiar with characters having cannons like that. (Samus, Mega Man, etc.) It probably isn't "really" a cannon, but I think it's meant to be reminiscent of one.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what its function as a "control rod" would be either. (I highly doubt she uses it as you'd use an actual control rod. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_rod) I guess you could speculate that there are buttons and levers inside it, but that seems far fetched to me. Why not just have a hand held device or something similar?

I personally don't think it's meant to have any particular function. At least nothing much different than what her feet do, assuming they do anything special themselves. I think it's primarily an aesthetic thing, as are most characters props, accessories, etc.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2013, 12:24:11 AM »
I can't really back this up, but I think she actually uses the control rod as an actual "control rod." She wields the power of a god, so the rod can possibly be used to keep Yatagarasu's power in check so that Okuu doesn't go ballistic and destroy Gensokyo a la "Utsuho of the Void." Either that or the rod stops Okuu from destroying herself with the ridiculous amount of power she wields. This would also coincide with the real world use of a control rod.
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2013, 12:59:44 AM »
samus aran would like to have a word with you
Well I think megaman is going to take a while, but ok.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what its function as a "control rod" would be either. (I highly doubt she uses it as you'd use an actual control rod. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_rod) I guess you could speculate that there are buttons and levers inside it, but that seems far fetched to me. Why not just have a hand held device or something similar?

I personally don't think it's meant to have any particular function. At least nothing much different than what her feet do, assuming they do anything special themselves. I think it's primarily an aesthetic thing, as are most characters props, accessories, etc.
I certainly don't think it works like a real control rod. I just think naming it a control rod was appropriate from their perspective since it is a rod and it does control things.
I'm not 100% behind the idea that it has controls inside but if I went with that I'd explain the size in the same way I'd explain why you can't play Crisis on your phone. Some technology and some magic just can't be compressed into your phone and control rod. Also I imagine that tending the fires of hell is a full time job so she never has to worry about how to take the control rod off. 
If it was primarily just an aesthetic thing, I would be ok with that.

I can't really back this up, but I think she actually uses the control rod as an actual "control rod." She wields the power of a god, so the rod can possibly be used to keep Yatagarasu's power in check so that Okuu doesn't go ballistic and destroy Gensokyo a la "Utsuho of the Void." Either that or the rod stops Okuu from destroying herself with the ridiculous amount of power she wields. This would also coincide with the real world use of a control rod.
I considered that but it didn't make sense to me, that the device that controls the Yatagarasu is on her arm. Like, is that where the Yatagarasu lives? I dunno, maybe she's like Ovan from .hack.
I formed an idea of what Okuu's relationship is with the Yatagarasu. From what cuc told me, Okuu only contains part of the Yatagarasu, so I'm tempted to think that there is a second sentience inside of Okuu (maybe in that red eye thing has something to do with that) that would have just as much interest in not destroying Okuu as Okuu has in not destroying herself.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2013, 02:14:40 AM »
I considered that but it didn't make sense to me, that the device that controls the Yatagarasu is on her arm. Like, is that where the Yatagarasu lives? I dunno, maybe she's like Ovan from .hack.
I formed an idea of what Okuu's relationship is with the Yatagarasu. From what cuc told me, Okuu only contains part of the Yatagarasu, so I'm tempted to think that there is a second sentience inside of Okuu (maybe in that red eye thing has something to do with that) that would have just as much interest in not destroying Okuu as Okuu has in not destroying herself.
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.

I'd like to point out too that she's seen in Oriental Sacred Place without her...uhh..yatagarasu stuff on, so I don't think she's outright needs the control rod to control her power. I've kinda thought of it as more of a dimmer switch, otherwise it could start an unstoppable chain reaction, and those aren't fun.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2013, 04:25:07 AM »
I see it as something to control her powers with, as a control rod and all, but I do like to entertain the thought that it's an ARM CANNON!!  :V

But yeah, I think it's canon that she doesn't actually use it to fire things or anything like that.  Hell, even in the game her attacks come from some sorta black sun above her head which she points to with her other hand than the arm cannon, so... hmm.

I think it's alright to be lenient about this though, since it looks so much like a gun shooting thing there're gunna be people thinking of it as such, and too much hassle to explain it to everyone  :derp:

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Imosa

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2013, 05:01:20 AM »
I'd like to point out too that she's seen in Oriental Sacred Place without her...uhh..yatagarasu stuff on, so I don't think she's outright needs the control rod to control her power. I've kinda thought of it as more of a dimmer switch, otherwise it could start an unstoppable chain reaction, and those aren't fun.
Ugh, I hate these shots to my beautiful interpretations. So maybe Okuu isn't chained to labor in the furnaces of hell. Maybe she can also be a normal girl from time to time.

It bothers me that this isn't more explicitly known. This is starting to sound like a ZUN-worthy question, and it shouldn't.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2013, 10:19:16 AM »
Now THIS is what I'm talking about! Well made fan theory, Imosa.

I'll have to think on this a bit before providing my own input. But I think, collectively, we're on to something here.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2013, 12:00:04 PM »
Utsuho had the job of controlling the flames of old hell before she gained Yatagarasu's power, so her control rod isn't necessary for that. Her job at the fusion reactor is a side-job, I think, so it can't really be full-time, since she still has to regulate the flames (unless the reactor is also used to regulate the temperature of old hell now?)

Do the symbols on her control rod/cannon mean something specific?
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2013, 01:05:25 PM »
Quote from: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Utsuho#Official_Profiles
On her left leg is the "Leg of fission";
On her right leg is the "Leg of fusion";
Finally, on her right arm is that which controls this, the "Third Leg"

Quote from: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Utsuho#Fandom
Her right foot is supposed to be encased in concrete (representing either the concrete sarcophagus that was built to contain the Chernobyl reactor or the cement-like corium found inside), but is often depicted in fan art as a gray ruffled legwarmer or an armored greave. The electrons orbiting her other leg are also often omitted in fanart, and sometimes the control rod on her arm is too.

The wording throughout her wiki page mostly supports the idea that it's a control rod rather than a cannon (aside from the aforementioned Zun quote and the text below one of the images), and seems to take the idea of "concrete right foot represents Chernobyl" as more than just fanon. Dunno if it's the same in Japanese, of course.

Imosa

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2013, 02:18:53 PM »
Utsuho had the job of controlling the flames of old hell before she gained Yatagarasu's power, so her control rod isn't necessary for that. Her job at the fusion reactor is a side-job, I think, so it can't really be full-time, since she still has to regulate the flames (unless the reactor is also used to regulate the temperature of old hell now?)

Do the symbols on her control rod/cannon mean something specific?
I always figured there was one furnace that was the flames of old hell and the nuclear reactor. Certainly there are other ways of maintaining the fire but none of them are quite as effective as just being able to control nuclear fusion and fission. Now that I think about it, was the Yatagarasu in old hell before Okuu got those powers? Was old hell always a sun inside the earth? If not then Okuu and her control wouldn't have been needed prior to Kanako installing nuclear power. 

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 02:45:07 PM »
Ugh, I hate these shots to my beautiful interpretations. So maybe Okuu isn't chained to labor in the furnaces of hell. Maybe she can also be a normal girl from time to time.

I wouldn't get too worried, I don't think you were that much off track.

Though I have to admit, reading what you guys wrote about her control rod gave me a smirk imagining that she can control the influence of the rod by hand shapes much like Samus' arm cannon.

I always figured there was one furnace that was the flames of old hell and the nuclear reactor. Certainly there are other ways of maintaining the fire but none of them are quite as effective as just being able to control nuclear fusion and fission. Now that I think about it, was the Yatagarasu in old hell before Okuu got those powers? Was old hell always a sun inside the earth? If not then Okuu and her control wouldn't have been needed prior to Kanako installing nuclear power.
I remember seeing a furnace kinda like this in DragonBall, I think it was powered by special wood or was a fire that simply burned.

Though you raise a very good question on how exactly she got to the Yatagarasu. I was thinking perhaps it might have been through some of the same holes that the spirits that Orin let out came through let her get to the sun.

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A Yatagarasu (Assuming there's more than one) is the fire of the furnace.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 02:59:08 PM »
Yeah... the nuclear reactor was most likely built on top of the furnance. According to Okuu's profile, she controlled the temperatures by either opening the skylights in the courtyard if it got too hot, or by dumping corpses in the flames if it got too cold, so I guess nuclear fusion is more pratical than that.

Gods can split themselves infinitely without losing any power, IIRC the explanation from SSiB; maybe Kanako just asked the Yatagarasu to lend its power to Okuu. Then again, Okuu's profile states that Kanako said to her that "the Hell of Blazing Fires hides the secret to the ultimate form of energy that humans can attain", which would point at the Yatagarasu being already there... maybe it had a shrine in hell that was abandoned, or something.
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2013, 06:33:47 PM »
maybe it had a shrine in hell that was abandoned, or something.

That almost sounds like a few things that can be added(with the assumption of the Shrine theory):

1. Okuu took over said "shrine" and thus gained said power within.
2. Okuu consume the Yatagarasu's power (as we often assume), or was given by same god.
3. Mysterious artifact giving her more power. (either the eye or the control rod, gods usually have an item that they bless and gives off a bit of their power via that item)

Imosa

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2013, 03:39:38 AM »
Yeah... the nuclear reactor was most likely built on top of the furnance. According to Okuu's profile, she controlled the temperatures by either opening the skylights in the courtyard if it got too hot, or by dumping corpses in the flames if it got too cold, so I guess nuclear fusion is more pratical than that.

Gods can split themselves infinitely without losing any power, IIRC the explanation from SSiB; maybe Kanako just asked the Yatagarasu to lend its power to Okuu. Then again, Okuu's profile states that Kanako said to her that "the Hell of Blazing Fires hides the secret to the ultimate form of energy that humans can attain", which would point at the Yatagarasu being already there... maybe it had a shrine in hell that was abandoned, or something.
There is no reason why Okuu can't still be controlling the temperature using corpses and a sky light, I just assume she's also controlling reaction speeds. Corpses are, after all, mostly fusile, and it is conceivable to cool the reactor via convection (although it would be a very efficient method). The sky light idea actually creates some problems which aren't really the topic of this thread. If hell has a sky light, where is that on the surface? How does air circulate through this sky light if it isn't massive?
The wiki says that Okuu found and ate the Yatagarasu which was in old hell. Meanwhile her profile in SA implies she was given the power by Kanako so there is a contradiction there. It doesn't say anything about a shrine but Kanako describes Okuu as a "mobile Shrine" in SoPM, which is an interesting status.
This contradiction is a real problem but I have ideas depending on which is true. Does anyone know what's going on there?

Now for some science. If we look at Nuclear fusion as a classical system, the sun would have to be many times hotter then science currently thinks it is. The only reason fusion in the sun works is because of quantum tunneling, where a wave has a probability to pass through an otherwise insurmountable barrier. This is the same reason why you might have heard that quantum mechanics says you can pass through a wall if you try long (longer then the lifetime of the universe) enough. So there, at the quantum level we (conceivably) see the power of the Yatagarasu, or perhaps Okuu, at work.
Back to fiction, one thing that bothers me is that if the Yatagarasu is a god, and gods need faith to function, who is having faith in the Yatagarasu, or in Okuu? I mean, would anyone even know what was going on with the Yatagarasu if Kanako didn't point it out?
On a lesser note. Do I understand the Yatagarasu correctly? Yatagarasu refers to a species of creature which act as envoys of Amaterasu, and one of these is working through Okuu. What did the Yatagarasu traditionally do, back before nuclear power plants were a thing? Same thing for Hell Ravens, what do they generally do?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 05:18:42 AM by Imosa »

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 11:30:14 AM »
Okuu's profile and the wiki don't really contradict themselves; she absorbed the Yatagarasu that was in old hell after Kanako said where she could find it. She didn't actually hand Okuu the god itself. Also, the "shrine" thing I mentioned was just a random guess as to why the Yatagarasu would be there in the first place, wasn't really basing it in canon.

Old hell is not really part of Gensokyo; its skylights could be somewhere in the outside world, or perhaps old hell is in it's own "dimension", similar to Gensokyo. This is just conjecture, though, so eh.

Okuu don't really needs faith, because she's not a god herself; that'd like saying that the Moriya Shrine itself needs faith. Now, if the Yatagarasu is related to Amaterasu, which is what the wiki says, then it probably gets it's faith from her (maybe similar to how Suwako gets faith even though Kanako does all the work); however, outside of its article in the wiki, I don't remember anywhere in canon that specifically states that the Yatagarasu is related to Amaterasu (Toyohime mentions something about (paraphrased) "if that raven was from the sun, it'd have red eyes and three legs!", which I guess would imply that the Yatagarasu is Ammy's messengers (she says that when she sees Yukari's crow shikigamis and at first thinks it's a message from Tsukuyomi's sister (who is heavily implied to be Amaterasu), IIRC).

As to why the Yatagarasu gives the power of nuclear fusion... well, wiki says the Yatagarasu is Amaterasu's avatar. Since she is the goddes of the sun, I guess it's somewhat logical for it to also provide sun related powers to those that channel it's strength. And nuclear fusion is one of those "powers", seeing as it's something that happens inside the sun. Yeah, I feel that I'm really stretching this, too, but it's the only connection I'm seeing, to be honest.

Iit still leaves the "what the hell was a Yatagarasu doing in hell in the first place?" question open.

Hell ravens are just an endemic species of hell, I guess (Okuu's profile mentions that they, along with the kasha and other youkai and evil spirits, are the only things living there now). I don't remember any mention of them having a specific job there, unlike the kasha (who bring corpses).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 11:40:21 AM by Sagus »
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 01:37:17 PM »
I always assumed that the Yatagarasu was in old hell because it somehow died. Orin, or some other Kasha, retrieved the body and brought it into former hell. Okuu threw it in but the body didn't burn up, or couldn't burn up. This could have happened a long time ago and Okuu forgot...or she just doesn't pay attention when she throws in corpses. Yes, it is a god in a sense, but it is still possible that it died at some point (not enough faith and whatnot).  Though, this does in a way throw out the whole "gets its faith from Amaterasu" thing Sagus was talking about.

Another explanation is that Kanako found the body and threw it in old hell just for her to tell Okuu to find it. Seems like something Kanako would do.

Also about the hell ravens, pretty sure they just live there like Sagus said. Some of them could be Satori's pets, but most are probably just birds that happen to live in hell and eat burning corpses. No one ever said hell didn't have wildlife.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 01:40:52 PM by Yatakarasu »

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 01:58:58 PM »
Okuu's profile and the wiki don't really contradict themselves; she absorbed the Yatagarasu that was in old hell after Kanako said where she could find it. She didn't actually hand Okuu the god itself.
Except the profile made it sounds like like Okuu was given the power while Kanako was talking to her. The story goes from Kanako talking to Okuu to Okuu being enveloped in light. Also, where did this part of the article about Okuu eating the Yatagarasu (which I'm getting tired or typing so shall now be called Yata) come from?

Old hell is not really part of Gensokyo; its skylights could be somewhere in the outside world, or perhaps old hell is in it's own "dimension", similar to Gensokyo. This is just conjecture, though, so eh.
That only means that there's a massive home somewhere in our world. It doesn't bother me that much.

Iit still leaves the "what the hell was a Yatagarasu doing in hell in the first place?" question open.
I actually have no problem just saying that's where the Yata chills out, so long as there is nothing saying that it should be doing something else.

I always assumed that the Yatagarasu was in old hell because it somehow died. Orin, or some other Kasha, retrieved the body and brought it into former hell. Okuu threw it in but the body didn't burn up, or couldn't burn up. This could have happened a long time ago and Okuu forgot...or she just doesn't pay attention when she throws in corpses. Yes, it is a god in a sense, but it is still possible that it died at some point (not enough faith and whatnot).  Though, this does in a way throw out the whole "gets its faith from Amaterasu" thing Sagus was talking about.

Another explanation is that Kanako found the body and threw it in old hell just for her to tell Okuu to find it. Seems like something Kanako would do.
The bigger issues is that if the Yata died from lack of faith then how is Okuu able to use it's power after eating it (assuming it still runs on faith which I think is fair)? Who started having faith in the Yata again?

Another question that this is all circling around is did the Yata agree to merge with Okuu, or was that done against its will. If we accept the former things become easier since the Yata could still have ample faith from some other source but if we insist that Okuu "ate" the Yata then that would imply the latter.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 02:23:04 PM »
The bigger issues is that if the Yata died from lack of faith then how is Okuu able to use it's power after eating it (assuming it still runs on faith which I think is fair)? Who started having faith in the Yata again?
Clearly Soccer/Football.

In all seriousness, maybe Okuu just having faith in the Yatagarasu is all it needs to give her its powers. She does call it "Lord Yatagarasu" so she clearly knows what/who it is. Or maybe Okuu, being a youkai, can just use its powers regardless of faith.

Another question that this is all circling around is did the Yata agree to merge with Okuu, or was that done against its will. If we accept the former things become easier since the Yata could still have ample faith from some other source but if we insist that Okuu "ate" the Yata then that would imply the latter.
Pretty sure the Yatagarasu didn't have a choice in the matter.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2013, 02:23:30 PM »
I always assumed that the Yatagarasu was in old hell because it somehow died. Orin, or some other Kasha, retrieved the body and brought it into former hell. Okuu threw it in but the body didn't burn up, or couldn't burn up. This could have happened a long time ago and Okuu forgot...or she just doesn't pay attention when she throws in corpses. Yes, it is a god in a sense, but it is still possible that it died at some point (not enough faith and whatnot).  Though, this does in a way throw out the whole "gets its faith from Amaterasu" thing Sagus was talking about.

Another explanation is that Kanako found the body and threw it in old hell just for her to tell Okuu to find it. Seems like something Kanako would do.

The problem with this is that the Yatagarasu is actually still alive... nowhere in canon it's said that Okuu absorbed the corpse of the Yatagarasu (IIRC). The whole process is simpy described as "She was enveloped in light, and she felt someone entering her body. When she came to, her body had changed greatly" in her profile.

I'll just throw this wild theory here: maybe when Kanako said "The Hell of Blazing Fires hides the secret to the ultimate form of energy that humans can attain", she wasn't talking about the Yatagarasu, but about the flames of hell; like, the flames always had the potential to be a nuclear fusion reactor, all that was needed was someone to control them. Kanako believed Okuu could do it, and so gave her the means to make it work: the Yatagarasu, who could give to someone the power to control nuclear fusion.

In this case, I'd guess Kanako convinced the Yatagarasu to do it, or just knocked it cold and forced it on Okuu (which gives me a hilarious mental image so I'll go with that :V).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 02:26:30 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2013, 02:39:43 PM »
Ahhhhh, this is why the term eat/consume is so troublesome.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2013, 10:58:35 PM »
I'll just throw this wild theory here: maybe when Kanako said "The Hell of Blazing Fires hides the secret to the ultimate form of energy that humans can attain", she wasn't talking about the Yatagarasu, but about the flames of hell; like, the flames always had the potential to be a nuclear fusion reactor, all that was needed was someone to control them. Kanako believed Okuu could do it, and so gave her the means to make it work: the Yatagarasu, who could give to someone the power to control nuclear fusion.
This is somewhat validated by issue 2 of WaHH. (I think was the one)
Spoiler:
Sanae and the gang pretty try to attain cold fusion with an element that they had a god create (I think it was Kanako.)
During that issue, Okuu was referred to as "The Nuclear Reactor in Old Hell." Which may mean that she is seen as a future prospect for energy. So that could possibly be a reason why Kanako would even hand Yata to Okuu; she's merely aiming for domination by having a monopoly over all of Gensokyo's power! (I'm guessing)
Spoiler:
It was also mentioned that said nuclear reactor is imperfect because it functions on Yatagarasu. Furthermore, the outside world still believes in nuclear progress and development, so that may be why Kanako is unable to build a proper nuclear fusion reactor in Gensokyo. She may merely be doing some tests with Yatagarasu and Okuu. (More crazy guessing!  :P
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2013, 11:51:29 PM »
The Yatagarasu couldn't be "dead". First of all, it still possesses godly power, as said. Second, things that die in Gensokyo don't all get sent to hell. Gods in particular very likely would not get sent to hell even if they could. Third, we're talking about the former hell that has long been passive. Beings sent to hell are not sent to former hell. Fourth, gods are immortal; they don't die in a traditional sense. If a god in Gensokyo has had all faith in it lost, then it becomes nothing. The god doesn't exist if nobody believes it exists. At best it might be relegated to a divine spirit.

The Yatagarasu wouldn't reside in hell itself, as one of the key points is that former hell doesn't reactivate until Utsuho receives its power. If the Yatagarasu was always there then it makes no sense that it only reactivates now.

What Sagus says is correct. I almost find it weird that people would think otherwise, partly because of that line and partly because it's explicitly stated that Utsuho, knowing how to control the fires of former hell, is the only one capable of managing the Yatagarasu.

WaHH 2 has Reimu call upon Kanayamabiko-no-Mikoto to create the palladium alloy. Notably, cold fusion is the end goal; something that the outside world has yet to accomplish. The nuclear fusion reactor of former hell is a preliminary measure.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2013, 05:12:39 PM »
The Yatagarasu wouldn't reside in hell itself, as one of the key points is that former hell doesn't reactivate until Utsuho receives its power. If the Yatagarasu was always there then it makes no sense that it only reactivates now.

What Sagus says is correct. I almost find it weird that people would think otherwise, partly because of that line and partly because it's explicitly stated that Utsuho, knowing how to control the fires of former hell, is the only one capable of managing the Yatagarasu.
The Yata could still be in hell without running a nuclear reactor. It's not like it has any incentive to power Gensokyo.
The reason why I considered that the Yata was in hell was because I expected Kanako to be as straight forward with Utsuho as possible, in an attempt not to confuse her with things like common metaphors.

In any case if Kanako put the Yata into Okuu then I see a bit of a problem. Why would she need to put the Yata into Okuu? I feel like the Yata could just go down to hell itself and run the fires so I'm thinking the Yata did not want to do that. Kanako took more drastic measures and forced the Yata into Okuu. If that's the case then the Yata clearly can't just leave Okuu which means its somehow tied to her. It might still not be too happy and might even want some revenge.

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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: The Cannon in Canon and Fanon
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2013, 06:07:06 PM »
You're forgetting that gods aren't restricted to a single body. They can, and do, split themselves in as many bodies as they need, with no decrease in power at all (Suwako says so in her victory quote against herself in 12.3, and I think this is mentioned in SSiB). For instance, Suwako can appear as a frog when a part of her is enshrined in other places (according to her SoPM article), but it's not like her human form suddenly vanishes and she appears as a frog in a far away shrine everytime someone calls to her. The same, I assume, applies to the Yatagarasu; what's inside Okuu is just a portion of it's spirit, not the full extent of the being.

How Kanako managed to turn Okuu into a shrine to the Yatagarasu is a good question, but really, the enshrining of gods itself is unexplained; like, if I built a shrine and started workshipping Kanako there, would a portion of her spirit just appear there so she could manifest herself to me? Or it's necessary for the god itself to show up and leave a part of it there? And after it's enshrined, can it just choose to leave the shrine, or it only disappears if people stop workshipping it there?

As to why Okuu even is necessary, I'd guess the Yata simply doesn't have a reason to work as an operator in a hell furnance for the benefit of a fantasy reserve, so Kanako needed a pawn that could channel his power and do the work. I'm guessing here that Okuu is something like Reimu's yin-yang orb (which is the Hakurei shrine's go-shintai); when Reimu uses the orb, she's using the blessing of the Hakurei god, but the god itself isn't actively doing anything. Same thing with Okuu; when she uses her nuclear powers, she's using the blessing of the Yatagarasu, but the Yata himself isn't actively doing anything.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:10:16 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Utsuho's Third Leg: Splitting Open the Proxy-God's Origins
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2013, 06:50:43 PM »
You're forgetting that gods aren't restricted to a single body. They can, and do, split themselves in as many bodies as they need, with no decrease in power at all (Suwako says so in her victory quote against herself in 12.3, and I think this is mentioned in SSiB). For instance, Suwako can appear as a frog when a part of her is enshrined in other places (according to her SoPM article), but it's not like her human form suddenly vanishes and she appears as a frog in a far away shrine everytime someone calls to her. The same, I assume, applies to the Yatagarasu; what's inside Okuu is just a portion of it's spirit, not the full extent of the being.
I'm not forgetting that, in fact I'm almost counting on it. This lets us answer the question of where the faith comes from. Okuu contains a portion of the Yata and the other portions are out gathering faith. In addition, a portion of a god may be easier to contain then the entire god (I know a god can apparently split itself without lousing power, but that can't be all there is to it). However, containment is still containment and it does beg the question, why the Yata doesn't just pull out, assuming that's what it wants to do.

How Kanako managed to turn Okuu into a shrine to the Yatagarasu is a good question, but really, the enshrining of gods itself is unexplained; like, if I built a shrine and started workshipping Kanako there, would a portion of her spirit just appear there so she could manifest herself to me? Or it's necessary for the god itself to show up and leave a part of it there? And after it's enshrined, can it just choose to leave the shrine, or it only disappears if people stop workshipping it there?
I think the god has to choose to be enshrined. I think it was WaHH where Reimu wanted to trick (or convince) a fortune god into residing in the Hakurei shrine. I imagine it can also leave. Although, in SSiB, when Yukari was captured by Toyohime, I recall they did mention the rope hanging in front of the Moriya shrine, and how it means that the shrine has something powerful enshrined there, and that this same technique was now being used to hold Yukari. I'd like someone who knows more about this stuff to throw in their two cents.

As to why Okuu even is necessary, I'd guess the Yata simply doesn't have a reason to work as an operator in a hell furnance for the benefit of a fantasy reserve, so Kanako needed a pawn that could channel his power and do the work. I'm guessing here that Okuu is something like Reimu's yin-yang orb (which is the Hakurei shrine's go-shintai); when Reimu uses the orb, she's using the blessing of the Hakurei god, but the god itself isn't actively doing anything. Same thing with Okuu; when she uses her nuclear powers, she's using the blessing of the Yatagarasu, but the Yata himself isn't actively doing anything.
I figure something like that, in the same way that a faucet controls water but doesn't actually produce it. I think of it as, the Yata needed a presence in hell, so something like a shrine, and it needed an operator for it's power, so something like Okuu. For Kanako, combining both into one, is just efficient. However, I would not say that the Yata doesn't do anything, it would still have to be taxed for the use of it's power.


Since the discussion has shifted, I changed the title of the thread. Do ya see the pun there?
Also I'm gonna ask the wiki about why the article says that Okuu ate the Yata.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:59:50 PM by Imosa »