東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[KFCbbQ]

Looks like you Shinki fans may have been right about her appearing in Hopeless Masquerade. Check it out:

[nsfw]http://i.imgur.com/Yk2B2.jpg[/nsfw]

Haven't you heard the news that Aya will be absent in Hopeless Masquerade? Zun has made the announcement yesterday that the reporter's role will be taken by Hatate instead because there're already too many games with Aya.  :ohdear:

[Aya Reiko]

Predicting the roster...

100%'s--
Reimu, Marisa, Sanae (too obvious she'll be in)

My >75%'s--
Youmu, Sakuya (At least one will be in)

My >50%'s--
Futo: Someone to represent the Taoists, and that faction is limited in number
Shou: Someone to represent Byakuren, and a 5th Stage boss
Rin: Canonically known to lurk the graveyard near the Myouren temple, represents the underground
Komachi: Especially if Rin, Seiga, and/or Kasen is in, can represent the Yama's interests
Seiga: A wild card, really. Represents her own interests.

My "might make it, but I'm not holding my breath"--
Cirno, Reisen, Yukari, Aya, Nitori, Mamizou

[Amraphenson]

Relevance to plot didn't really stop Soku from having the most random cast. They put in who they want to, but if they're too difficult to implement (hi Mokou/Kaguya), then you can't put them in. Sometimes you just can't mix mechanics with character faithfulness, it happens.

[Critz]

What do you mean by "too difficult to implement"? Sanae-chan had propably the most diverse power set in the series (wind, falling stars, tidal waves, pentagrams, grid, shooting seeds and rice, flying snakes and exploding frogs), and they not only adapted almost all of it (dropping seeds and UFO bombs), but also added  the wind mechanic, exploding packets and actual Kanako and Suwako assists with four moves each. The only one more thing I could ask for is if she could actually be higher tier this time, and I won't need anyone else.

Suwako's propably even more of an example. They got creative enough to adapt 2 bows, 2 claps, 1 bow  as crushing stone hands, Snake Hears and Eats Frog  as a giant stone snake eating you, Mishaguji as Shun Goku Satsu ripoff with giant snakes and managed to give her that totally insane fighting style with swimming under the ground and growing trees out of nowhere. Designing a convincing Mokou should require a fraction of that imagination, but I can understand them not wanting to, as they gave us another fire type (Okuu). The entire "too strong" argument is total bullshit though, you can't drop in Yukari  and expect us to buy it.

[Amraphenson]

There's a difference between what it looks like and what it requires mechanically. 2bows is just two large hitboxes coming in from the sides, Snake Hears is one rising from the ground, Mishaguji is an expanding unblockable hitbox that expands from the ground. All pretty easy in terms of pure mechanics, though visually impressive yes. However, they didn't put in Mokou or Kaguya because of balance reasons because they wouldn't be Kaguya or Mokou without their resurrection. It's not a question of direct power levels, it's a question of implementing those powers mechanically and remaining faithful to the characters, which they did well with all the other characters but couldn't for the life of themselves do with our two immortals. Don't blame 'em. Some things are just easier to put into fighting games. I wouldn't for the life of me know how to implement Kisume or Parsee.

I never used the 'too strong' argument.

[Critz]

How is resurrection relevant? Aren't spell card battles specifically designed  to be non-lethal in canon anyway? If they wanted to, they could have implemented something like a spell card that regains some of the HP upon knockout for that last chance to win (something Kaguya already does in IN).

[Drake]

It's possible that the real reason they weren't included was the opposite of the intuitive reason; they could have been too simplistic of characters, which would make it difficult to design full movesets and spell cards. I myself doubt this, but I also really doubt "too powerful" and "too complicated" as possible reasons.

[Amraphenson]

Resurrection is relevant because it's intrinsic to the characters at hand, as much as fantasy seal or master spark or gap manipulation is to their respective characters. Their moveset needs to feel like Mokou and Kaguya, and be a full mechanic much like Sanae's wind or Suwako's weird movement; we can't just put it in as a spellcard because Soku's mechanics mean that it's possible for them to not have it, and it just feels sloppy when compared to characters that have a full-representation, not just a token spellcard. Not to mention that such an easy 'I don't lose yet' button would be in stark contrast to all the other 'healing' options in Soku which have ridiculous recoveries, and if we're to give their resurrection cards such recovery then the whole point is moot; just punish again into a full-damage combo. It's needless extending of a round, not to mention a waste of meter. They could've given them much higher HP, but since they decided that everyone needs the same HP total then that options out.

Drake explains why I can't think of any way to implement Kisume or Parsee. Some characters are just too simplistic, some characters' powers don't translate well into a fighting game, etc. Which is why putting a character into a fighting game isn't as easy as it seems unless the characters were created with fighting games already in mind, which Touhou wasn't, and from a developer standpoint it's far simpler to just put in characters that don't require so much headache; ie recent characters and or well established ones with powers and or abilities that are simple to translate into fighting game mechanics. I don't think Mokou would be too simplistic though, as I can very easily see her moveset. It's just the whole 'hey I'm immortal' thing is a mind boggler. Give her a much lower health bar but multiple lives? And whenever she loses a life bar she disintegrates and reappears where she wishes? Who knows. It even applies to other games like DotS; Trance would agree with me that Kaguya and Mokou's state of balance have been dramatic, to say the least.

[Drake]

It's really as easy as just having her blow up and resurrect when she dies. If you lose the fight you still lose the fight, even if you resurrect perfectly afterwards. There was never any pronounced difference in the main games either, so I'm not sure why there's a real need to incorporate it to that extent; while I do think it's a key part of their character it doesn't need a mechanic to itself that messes around with the other mechanics just for the sake of having the ability in the game.

[Aya Reiko]

Forgot one for the ">50% group"

Tenshi, considering her little scheme with the Hakurei Shrine (that Yukari foiled)...

[Stuffman]

The interview makes it clear that the reason Mokou and Kaguya weren't put in is because they decided to go for small fry characters instead of yet another final boss. Hence Wriggle and Nitori, they just ran out of time. It had nothing to do with mechanical issues.

[Ikari]

I personally think Mokou would've been really easy to implement, but Kaguya? Hell, I have no idea how they could have done that. Her only spellcards are the 5 impossible requests. Her power is literally impossible to translate into actual spellcards/attacks. It hurts my head to think about her skill cards even more than her spellcards. Kaguya is, purely in my opinion, real hard to create move-wise.

[Amraphenson]

I think they could do Kaguya as something like an immobile version of Nu-13 or Mu-12; extremely slow beyond maybe a teleport or two, and she just sits there throwing projectiles at you, with shorter ranged projectiles as her 'melee' moves. Effectively Hilda from Under Night inBirth, or Virgilia from the Umineko fighter. It would be an almost impossible task to approach her.  :V

[Ikari]

Well yeah, there's many way Kaguya could've been made into a fun fighting style, but her attacks would be...what exactly?

I can't remember the game, but it's a fan game that's a mix between races and battles. Anyway, Kaguya was in it and she had a fun playstyle; She was very limited power wise, but every time an impossible request was successfully used (hitting the enemy), she'd unlock the other, giving her an increasingly powerful and diversified move set. THAT would've been nice, but still doesn't rule out the ''I have 5 spellcards and a strange power'' problem.

[Amraphenson]

For her melee attacks, either your token to taps or stick pokes for the weak attacks, and actually summoning her requests as blunt weapons for the stronger ones as she changes from various smug poses. As shown here by Hilda on the initial right for the first match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur31lu4Sul0

[Ikari]

Hopeless Masquerade's final boss being the Watatsuki Sisters.

Now THAT would be ZUN trolling. Not putting Shinki isn't.

[Kami-sama!]

Hopeless Masquerade's final boss being the Watatsuki Sisters.

Now THAT would be ZUN trolling. Not putting Shinki isn't.

That would mean some attacks might not do any damage at all :X since super cheap Yorihime could cut through Master Sparks and eat Stardust Reveries and use Sakuya's knives to her benefit.

[Tengukami]

I'm honestly not getting why some people think it would be difficult to incorporate [Character X] in a fighting game. Especially characters with such rich themes as Kaguya and Mokou. With a little imagination, there's a lot of possible magic you could work into there.

[Ikari]

I'm honestly not getting why some people think it would be difficult to incorporate [Character X] in a fighting game. Especially characters with such rich themes as Kaguya and Mokou. With a little imagination, there's a lot of possible magic you could work into there.

As I said earlier, Mokou would be awesome to make; More kick attacks and fire based techniques offers millions of possibilities; Fireballs, explosions, phoenixes, etc.

As for Kaguya, her power is ''Manipulation of the eternal and the instantaneous.'' How... how can anyone use that in battle in another way than Sakuya's time abilities? And her spellcards are based on a legend, limiting her spellcards to 5 treasures; Unless many variants were made and used in different ways (spells and skills), I personally can't think of anything else to give her. I would've proposed rainbow projectiles, like many portrayals of her, but Meiling kinda stole the rainbow in UNL.

[Jana]

There's an Azumanga Daioh doujin fighter. If you're creative enough, it can be done.

[Tengukami]

As for Kaguya, her power is ''Manipulation of the eternal and the instantaneous.'' How... how can anyone use that in battle in another way than Sakuya's time abilities? And her spellcards are based on a legend, limiting her spellcards to 5 treasures; Unless many variants were made and used in different ways (spells and skills), I personally can't think of anything else to give her. I would've proposed rainbow projectiles, like many portrayals of her, but Meiling kinda stole the rainbow in UNL.

Kaguya also employs themes including the moon (and with it, space and stars), the night in general, bamboo, rabbits, not to mention the five treasures have mad potential ... the limits can go as far as the imagination.

[Ikari]

Kaguya also employs themes including the moon (and with it, space and stars), the night in general, bamboo, rabbits, not to mention the five treasures have mad potential

Good point. I guess her weather would be full moon, uh?

Speaking of weather, I seem to be the only one here who liked such feature in SWR/UNL ;___;

[Stuffman]

rabbits

Ahahahahaha oh man

Now I'm just imagining Kaguya doing fuck all and just being the hitbox while all her attacks call rabbits in from offscreen to attack

[Jana]

Kaguya can be Charlotte and just order minions to attack. Then when you think you've won

Spoiler:

Eirin comes out to gank you

[Ikari]

doing fuck all and just being the hitbox while all her attacks call rabbits in from offscreen to attack

That would be Tewi's job! Tewi would be a fun character to play as; Huge wooden hammer, rabbits trolling and stat manipulation.

Anyway, I'd love to see Seiga in Hopeless Masquerade. She MUST throw fetuses, thunderballs or Yoshika. (Or all of them!)

[Tengukami]

Ahahahahaha oh man

Now I'm just imagining Kaguya doing fuck all and just being the hitbox while all her attacks call rabbits in from offscreen to attack

In Lunatic mode, once you hit a rabbit for the first time, it divides into two rabbits. Then they bounce faster, but stop dividing at that point.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

It's actually quite easy to put Kaguya in a fighter. Lemme try to translate some of her spellcards:

Divine Treasure "Brilliant Dragon Bullet"

She would summon a long oriental dragon made of light to attack the opponent.

Divine Treasure "Buddhist Diamond"

Some diamond shards would be summoned to hit the enemy. Or something like that.

New Impossible Request "Seamless Ceiling of Kinkaku-ji"

A ceiling made of gold would come from the sky and smash the opponent on the ground.

Impossible Request "Bullet Branch of Hourai -Rainbow Danmaku-"

Something like this (check her colorful beams at 3:55)

[Serela]

The issue isn't spellcards, it's what she would do normally.

I can hardly even imagine her moving. I was always under the impression that in IN she was sitting down (and I don't know if she actually isn't or not)

So the thought of her in a fighter IS kind of hilarious to me.

[Ikari]

I can hardly even imagine her moving. I was always under the impression that in IN she was sitting down (and I don't know if she actually isn't or not)

Thanks god I'm not the only one who thought she was sitting.

She'd summon Tewi and Eirin in battle. That's what she needs to do.

[shadowbringer]

- Kaguya is often portrayed as a slow character, which reminded me of TasoFro's PatchCon (where she's a powerful aoe, but her projectiles and herself are slow); hopefully TasoFro can (when they have the time to make her) avoid taking the lazy route of basing Kaguya's playstyle on MB's Archetype Earth
- Mokou's ressurrection can have a high cost (making you earn it); this reminds me of 3s' Gill (ressurrects once if his super meter is full, but can't use supers afterwards and, though his ressurrection pushes opponents away during the skill, he can be hit, which stops the HP regen, and even killed), UMvC's Phoenix (haven't played it, though, but that would make Mokou have low stamina and have a high cost on her ress), DotA's phoenix hero (with its rebirth ult, unless I'm misremembering things again) or DotS' Mokou (which would be like Elena's healing, and require distance or a throw/knockdown)
- rabbit rush reminds me of two things: Arakune's curse (don't play BB, though) and (MvC's) Strider's super which isn't Ouroboros or Ragnarok, forgot which. (I'd like Satori to have that attack with cats and crows, instead)
- rabbit division reminds me of Nazuna's animal-shaped projectiles (Arcana Heart series)

Hopeless Masquerade's final boss being the Watatsuki Sisters.

Now THAT would be ZUN trolling. Not putting Shinki isn't.

them being the final boss in a bad game (in case the game really does turn to be a bad one), that would be trolling
(though I'm afraid that neither their presence or Mima's can seemingly awesome-fy the game -- TD would be surely a better game if Mima really was in it, for example )
it would seem difficult to think of a playstyle for Toyohime, but Yorihime could use some yet unrevealed skills regarding the kami she invokes (I know nothing of japanese lore, just assuming that she really has a nearly inexhaustible repertoire), and be a low-stamina character with an immense amount of options, the "difficult but awesome" type.

edit:

The issue isn't spellcards, it's what she would do normally.

I can hardly even imagine her moving. I was always under the impression that in IN she was sitting down (and I don't know if she actually isn't or not)

So the thought of her in a fighter IS kind of hilarious to me.

know what that reminds me? Riannon, in Aquapazza