Ten Desires Mafia - Game Over

[Kick Hopper]

@youmu

I believe that Reimu had a plan, put it into motion and then it was pointed at that it wouldn't work, at which point she backed down.  I also believe Yoshika is scummy due to the way she's pushing for Reimu-repeating a statement over and over doesn't make it true.

no it wasnt actually dropped, the only reason she unvoted was because it was unpopular. she still thinks yuyuko is scum for some reason.

also doing this:

I don't like the way Yoshika is pushing for Reimu.  You seem to be voting me for pushing Yoshika, so does that mean someone would be justified in reading you as scum?

doesnt make any better what you tried to do with soga any better. Why are you using reasoning like this? people can only clear themselves as town, using hypocrisy as a reason to make there cases null seems pretty lame to me.

Reimu had no problem with my #115, which you [Seiga] "called out" as fluff/active lurking/pretending to scumhunt.

what exactly did you mean by this? and how does this make anything better?

cut by something adorable
cut again by something dumb

[Kabuto]

Youmu says that how one interprets Reimu's actions affects how one sees Yoshika. Youmu herself seems to believe Reimu is town, so Yoshika, who is doggedly pursuing her, must therefore be scum. If this is indeed the case, then the logic is sort of faulty, since I have no idea how town Reimu implies scum Yoshika. Youmu, could you clarify a little more?

I find Yoshika scummy because of how she's pursuing Reimu, not because I believe she's tunneling a townie.  My town read of Reimu and my scum read of Yoshika are interrelated, but neither causes the other.

yoshika's position re: reimu seems reasonable and i dont understand why she's getting a flashwagon. if people are voting her because of rp i may cry. stop being dumb people.

I'm not voting her due to RP, however annoying I might find it.  However she has done nothing to flip my read of her, and her reaction to being asked a question is to leave.  I'm quite happy with where my vote is at the moment.

-cut by Mamizou-
Huh.  Reimu still thinking Yuyuko is scum is strange.  I'll have to re-read Reimu later.
I backed down from Soga as I hadn't noticed her unvote.  I'm using reasoning like that to illustrate that by Seiga's reasoning for calling me scummy, she herself is also scummy.
The third quote is something I noticed while re-checking.  I was trying to give Seiga an alternate impression of events to see if those made more sense, of if she will keep confirmation bias due to her read on Yoshika.

[Ouja]

Verdict on Yoshika: Not scum

Came to this conclusion earlier but I guess I forgot that I never posted it. Yoshika may be obtuse, but I haven't seen her do anything necessarily scummy. If anything, she tries to draw a lot of attention to herself, which I think is pretty proactive and town-motivated?or, at the very least, not lurking. I'd say her case, while not flawless, is reasonable enough, even though I may not agree with her on her view that Reimu is scum.

On Marisa?I'll admit my bias against Marisa because she was sticking to her random vote, which I thought was lame. Random votes should ideally be discarded as soon as RVS is over, though I guess that might just be what I think. I thought only Reimu and Marisa (and technically Yoshika) were worth mentioning at that point.

Responding to Youmu in a bit.

[Kabuto]

she has done nothing to try to flip my read of her

EBWOP

[Ouja]

The way I see it, seeing Reimu as town has little effect on Yoshika being scum. Your case is simply Yoshika is scum because the way she pursues Reimu. In that case, let me ask you the same question you asked Yoshika: Do you have any other reasons for finding Yoshika scummy besides her pushing Reimu?

(Incidentally, Yoshika should answer the question Youmu asked her about if there's any other reasons she has for finding Reimu scummy.)

[Kabuto]

I have no other reasons for finding Yoshika scummy because, IIRC, Yoshika has done nothing but push for Reimu (extensive tunneling) and respond to others, rarely (her RE:Kogasa, which is founded on an assumption that varies from player to player)
So I guess she's been active, but not accomplishing much of anything.  Should her content shape up I'd be happy to unvote, but it hasn't so I'm keeping it right where it is unless someone scummier comes up.

[Kabuto]

Going to add that I'm having internet difficulties and am apparently going out for most of the day tomorrow.  I'll be back a few hours before deadline but content from me will be sporadic at best until then.

[Ouja]

Well we aren't getting anywhere are we.

Like I said, I voted Youmu because I didn't like her vote on Yoshika, which was lackluster in that her reason for voting is, well, boring. Yoshika seemed like too much of an easy target, and Youmu, along with Nue, looked suspicious for that. However, I disliked Youmu more than Nue since I couldn't really get a hand on her thought process, while Nue was clearer. You can see my attempts to question Youmu for clarification, and, well, we're at a standstill again because people are not here. :wat:

I might need a break. I'll come back later for a new perspective on things.

[Kiva-la]

... YoSHikA queSTionS tHe WOrtH of AttemPtinG to exPlain AnythING to HAlfBRain.
So YOshiKA is ScuM foR FinDING thINgS tHAt YoSHIkA doES noT likE ABout MEAN lady's coNTENT and fOR waiTING foR MEAn LAdy to PRoduce CONTENT which NEVER came bUT it is OKay for HAlFBraIN to buILD a craPlogIC caSE On YOshiKA that HalFBRaiN sitS on For thE EntirETY of THE day sAYINg thaT HAlFBraIN wiLL Wait for YOshika to makE ConTENt halFBRaiN likES.
YoSHIkA is hiGHLy AnnoyED by HAlFBRaiN no THINking!

(Incidentally, Yoshika should answer the question Youmu asked her about if there's any other reasons she has for finding Reimu scummy.)

YoSHiKA noT liKE dROp case and NOt NEW Case!
YOshikA no lIKE atTEmpT 1v1!
YoSHikA NOt like appEASEment!

Uuuuuuuu~...
YoshIkA thinK MEan LaDy aNd PRINcess lAdy both siLLy!
YoShiKA THInk mEna LAdy Be toO cAUtioUS and ToO much tIMe selF JUstificATion.
YoSHIkA THINk thiS in parTIculaR StupID!
YOSHika nOT like forCE 1v1 attEMpt on FIrsT dAy!

YOshiKa noT LIke lacK of CONvictION mOrE!
YoShIKa thINK MeAN laDY TOo not meAN!
MEaN ladY tOO much tiMe apPEasMEnt!

YoshIKa SEe aPPEaSEment!
ApPeAsEMENT scUM!
ToO UnDEDicATED!
YoSHIkA no KnoW iF NeW or OLD. WhY ThING matTER?

YoshIKa beLIEve MEAN laDy scUm unTIL ReasON otHERwise givEN!
MAYbe mORE than aPPeasEment AND DEFEndING!

NoT EnoUGH?
YOshIKA sAY yOSHika waIT foR MeaN LAdy to mAKE conTENT but NOT ConTENt fOR pageS and PAGeS!

YoSHikA sAY One more THINg aBout meAn LADy and otHEr.
Town NOt DEfendING! TowN maYBE justiFIcation buT neVEr deFenDINg or AppeaSEment!
TOwn MAke caSES, nOT EXCusES!

[Kiva-la]

YoshIkA alWayS wilLING chANgE MiND buT NO reaSOn to CHaNGe mEAn LADy mind!

Uuuuuu~...
YoshiKa hunGry Again...

[Kick Hopper]

my eyes  :V

[Sasword]

YAHOO~!

All this shouting makes me happy! Without shouting I'll go extinct! Even if I'm already dead!

Reimu: Super Fake Batman Hyper Town
Yoshika: Super Annoying Zombie Brain Town
Seiga: Super Fairy Mime Town

Sanae seems alright too but she isn't high tier yet.

Reimu and Yoshika, you stop that fighting this instant. It's been good for getting reads, but it's bred terrible wagons. Just look at those wagons. Ew.  If I hear another person say policy lynch I will echo these words off the walls till your ears bleed you hear me? We're looking for the devilish incident makers who wounded my pride and life bar!

Yuyuko you cut that policy stuff out right now and make a vote based on something that's actually happened. You are a bad influence.

Actually, these wagons are filled with smart sounding girls pushing not-so-smart ideas.

Well, I don't really have a problem with interpreting her words. It's just that considering how hard she is pushing for Reimu's lynch, she isn't giving many good reasons for it. I'll repeat this again, "too much appeasement and self-defense" aren't very good reasons especially if you're trying hard to get your target lynched.

That, and her attitude irks me. She responds to but does not recognizes the weight of the situation at hand and the responses of other people. She needs to take this a little bit more seriously.

This is bad, bad, bad. Your reasoning about her not giving many good reasons sounds like you're voting her for being not so good with words. Her attitude irking you isn't a reason she's scum. Her reasons for voting Reimu are better then your reasons for voting her, which makes your vote look quite scumtastic. (Sanae cuts me saying someething similar. Maybe Sanae can get a higher tier soon)

Youmu, why should Yoshika be trying to flip your read of her? She should be trying to lynch her suspect, not catering to people.

Will post more as reread, been cut about six times since startingg this (fuck you backspace key) so.

##unvote
##vote: Houjuu Nue

[Decade]

Actually Yoshika, I was voting you only to get you to be a little clearer on your case and push. I wasn't very confident that you were scum, and I didn't think the wagon would come to a lynch either once town starts getting scummier reads.

But seriously, your number of posts pushing for a lynch should correlate to the number of different points you make. Again, only restating the same points over and over while hurling ad hominems isn't likely to convince anyone to agree with your case at all, and when a townie wants to push for scum they should convince others to join them. You being Yoshika is okay, but don't overdo it and keep putting new content into your words.

Since I've come out and be blunt about this I'll ##Unvote
-cut-
See above :V

[Kabuto]

Ok, so 3 reasons.
Forcing a 1v1, which I already said I don't see.
Appeasement, which I've acknowledged and was asking if there was anything else.
and defending, which is not an inherently scummy action, and I don't view it as scummy, as I've already said.
Your quotes don't bring anything up I haven't already addressed.

Do you have any opinions on players who aren't me/Reimu?

-cut-
Kyouko, by 'flip my read' I mean 'give a satisfactory answer to questions' or 'give some content that isn't lynch Reimu'.  Essentially, give other opinions.

It's good to have a fresh voice around though, now we seem to be getting somewhere.

[Kabuto]

Do you have any opinions on players who aren't me/Reimu/Kogasa?

EBWOP
...
again.

[Sasword]

One person being weird is more likely to be scummy to someone special like Yoshika then to more experienced people. You've brought up three arguments that Yoshika is using and said you 'don't see' it. So you disagree with her. How does that make Yoshika scum? You can have heated disagreements between town. What do you think of the people voting Reimu right now?

Nue: You shouldn't lie, it makes you look scummy and votable. Make a better case on someone and I'll consider calling off the echos of war war war war WAR

[Kiva-la]

I've been covering my own hide for the last page and a half.

YoShiKA saY LooK ThiS!
HoW thiS TOwn?

Reimu and Yoshika, you stop that fighting this instant.

Ray... Rei... Lay... MeAN laDY no FIghtING!
MEaN LAdy only APPEasmenT and DEFendinG!
NO caSE!

Appeasement, which I've acknowledged and was asking if there was anything else.
and defending, which is not an inherently scummy action, and I don't view it as scummy, as I've already said.
Your quotes don't bring anything up I haven't already addressed.

Do you have any opinions on players who aren't me/Reimu?

HAlFBRain nO reaD GAme!
HalFBRaiN noT REaliZE CraZY UMbreLLA defend!
HAlFBrAin NOT reAD AboUT crAZY UmbrElla oR ALien!
HAlFBRaIN Herself saY NOthing aBout Not YOshikA!
HYpocrisy HAlFBreEd?

Forcing a 1v1, which I already said I don't see.

The way I see it was now have several options:

Lynch me for suggesting NL to get the ball rolling.
Lynch Yuyuko for jumping on my bait
Lynch a lurker [We'd need to wait and see who's actually lurking to do this, timezones]
NL, which, as most people have said, is a bad idea. Unless we get some nightmare senario overnight which leaves us at D2 MYLO or LYLO or even losedue to some joint win scenario.
Keep waiting and seeing.

HoW ThiS NOT foRCe 1v1?

[Decade]

I never lied. Well, I did use my vote to pressure a player without trying to lynch them, and that's not how votes usually work, but still :3

Either way, okay. At the moment most (or all) of the out-of-place things have already been pointed out, and I'm trying to do something else right now, so to echo Sanae, I'm waiting for more people to show up and post.

-cut-
Oh gawd Yoshika calm down already

[Kabuto]

It's not the arguments being used, it's the fact that they're thrown out repeatedly with no new information.  The repeated insults don't help either.

I'm re-reading stuff right now so I'll get back to you on Mamizou after I finish re-reading Reimu.  (at which point I'll also give an updated opinion on Reimu)
Yuyuko has been absent for much of the discussion, not sure if it's due to timezones or lurking.  I'm inclined to believe the former.  The vote was still made in a sort-of RVS gamestate due to a tactical error on Reimu's part.  I see no problem with the reasoning for Yuyuko's vote, even if it's a different conclusion.

-cut-
How is defending yourself scummy?  Being lynched (unless you're a jester) does not further your wincon.

Look at my EBWOP, I added Kogasa to the list.  As of late I've been mostly mentioning you-but that's due to being asked to clarify.  How is answering questions hypocritical?

Because of the "keep waiting and seeing" option.  The more information out there, the more informed of a decision can be made.

[Decade]

I've just noticed that me and Youmu have been taking similiar but slightly different stances, and making similarly similiar but slightly different posts for a while now >_>;

Hope this doesn't ruin my streetcred.

[Sasword]

There's already mounds of activity. If you think Yoshika is okay you can always look at what people have done so far and start slamming over that. Only lazy scumbags need to wait and see at this point. Don't wait for the latest fad to fall on their face, go find it and present it with a DON!

Yoshika: That's alot more then forcing a 1 vs 1 though. I  know it's hard to tell, but I'm pretty sure Reimu takes all those suggestions seriously. I don't believe Reimu is voting Yuyuko either. Besides, town are more likely to believe in their gambits and force terrible 1 vs 1's then scum. Scum are just more likely to take them up on it and pretend it never happened later. Come on, let's look at other people. Reimu probably isn't tasty.

[Sasword]

Kogasa's reasoning doesn't seem bad so far, but I definitely want her to come back and take a look at Yoshika wagon + opinions now that she's just as obviously a target as Reimu was. I have similar feelings about Mamizou. They do not strike the suspicion alarm for now.

By the way I'm surprised people have been mentioning lurker policy lynches and not mentioning Marisa, who Doesn't Exist(tm). If you wanted policy it's right there. Same with Yoshika being skipped over for Reimu because Reimu said the NL word.

[OOO]

nue is a clearly

Spoiler:

a job alt

sanae's explanation works for the time frame, but this statement is confusing:

"The way I see it, seeing Reimu as town has little effect on Yoshika being scum. Your case is simply Yoshika is scum because the way she pursues Reimu."

actually, the way someone pushes someone is a fine way to make a case on them. if i think someone is town and i think someone else is pushing on them in a scummy way, i'll think they're scum. given your case is based on the way youmu is voting yoshika, this is a hypocritical statement.

but there's something more interesting for the moment, namely nue's unvote in #193 and immediate transition into :yukkuri: mode; basically what i accused sanae of doing but more blatantly so.

##unvote
##vote: nue

who's scum nue?

kyouko, i think your reimu defense is pretty bad, no offense. it's like newbscum can't be silly. i'd have thought her more townish if she stuck to her yuyuko opinion, but when it was clear no one else was supporting her she just dropped it and walked away.

[Kick Hopper]

I don't believe Reimu is voting Yuyuko either.

Evidently people are not agreeing with my gambit, so I'll back off. I guess jumping on a reason to policy isn't enough. Youmu's speaking the most sense here.

##Unvote Saigyouji Yuyuko

@kyouko
vote dropped suspension hasnt

[Kabuto]

A bit more on Yuyuko: fails to consider that Reimu's plan may not have been fully thought through.

I really don't see a problem with Reimu at all after re-reading.  Yes, she backs off, I see no problem with maintaining a read though.  She can't convince anyone and unvoted to be able to put her vote somewhere useful.

Mamizou's reactions are somewhat interesting.  Seems to imply Reimu wanted to be lynched along with re-stating what Reimu already said.  Mamizou's reasons for voting Reimu as a whole seem to be based off of interpretations of Reimu's actions.  In #121 Mamizou says Reimu had no intent to catch scum despite Reimu clearly claiming otherwise.
-after Mamizou's cut-
Suspecting someone as scum for reasons no one else sees is scummy because
-end cut portion-

Either way Yoshika seems better after the re-read so ##Unvote
I'd still lynch her if she was a wagon at deadline but Miko and Marisa need to say more (Miko has all of 1 post near the beginning about 12 hours ago and Marisa has 2 or 3 in the same span).

-cut by Futo-
How did I not catch that about Sanae  :derp:
Sanae's earlier posts had made her need rope but that observation just seals the deal.
##Vote: Sanae

[Kick Hopper]

suspicion*

[Sasword]

Silly yes. Actively pushing at the beginning of the game to bring out the activity and being responsible for getting the game started, probably not. Scum don't want the attention and would have someone telling them that just dropping and running is a bad idea. Scum also don't think they're Town Magical Batman.

Why would Reimu stop being suspicious of Yuyuko? I would suggest Reimu look for more reason to vote Yuyu but I don't see why acknowledging no one wants to PL because of a -silly- gambit is scummy.

[OOO]

sure it got the game started but in the end it's fluff designed to make him look like he's doing something when he's not. w/e i disagree with you but this is more of a gameplay argument (and depends on the player i guess). it's more important right now what he comes back with.

[Decade]

Futo, my vote on Yoshika initially wasn't a very serious one (if you look back I didn't even post a proper reason for it), and I only kept it there because later I wanted to pressure Yoshika on improving her case against Reimu. Again, I wasn't pushing for a Yoshika lynch.

Mamizou, I find it strange that you keep insisting that Reimu still suspects Yuyuko. Also earlier when Youmu said Reimu "backed down" from her gambit and vote on Yuyuko, you said that it wasn't dropped (? unless you're talking about Reimu's suspicions on Yuyuko, which would make that post out-of-place as no one said anything about Reimu's suspicions either). What is your reason for insisting that Reimu's suspicions remain? And (not to defend Reimu, but) even if said suspicions are still there, why would scum seriously "suspect" town? Scum would prefer to avoid tunneling anyone, especially this early in the game, and leave their options open, don't you think? And even if I'm wrong about that last sentence, why would scum want to appear to be suspicious of anyone this early into the game over an unreliable gambit?

-cuts-

[OOO]

Futo, my vote on Yoshika initially wasn't a very serious one (if you look back I didn't even post a proper reason for it), and I only kept it there because later I wanted to pressure Yoshika on improving her case against Reimu. Again, I wasn't pushing for a Yoshika lynch.

uh
if you weren't pushing for her lynch why were you voting for her?
also, you wrote a huge paragraph on mamizou. do you think she's scum or not? people who don't have scumreads are scum even if they're not mafia.