Author Topic: So You Want To Be The Townest Mafia (Thread 1) (Read 127199 times)

Omba · « **Reply #660 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:32:28 AM »

Quote from: capt. h on April 06, 2012, 12:56:18 AM

Actually, PoE of a different sort is kinda sorta how I totally started really noticing Conq.

That is a very different kind of PoE, though.
Also, PoE in that form is not a reason someone is scum, but a reason to look at who might be scum.
Now if you do that but the people you end up looking at because of it don't actually look like scum then there's something wrong with your PoE.

Right, another thing. You've asked us to post what we think we do differently when we're scum, but you haven't told us what you do differently as scum.

And yet another thing. http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4662.0.html There's a nice list there of all mafia games that have been played on MotK, with the scum team listed for each game.
If someone is aware of his own meta and is at least a somewhat competent player, he can use that to screw with you, btw.

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #661 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:39:53 AM »

Omba, is capth scum?

this might be something that I'd know if I actually finished re-read before posting but whatever man

Omba · « **Reply #662 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:43:52 AM »

Eh, I still need to do my re-read, but last day I didn't think he was scum and so far I also don't think he's scum, so most likely he's not scum.
No, scratch that, he's town.

capt. h · « **Reply #663 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:49:51 AM »

Welp, that's because I'm having a very, very difficult time finding the link to the one game I ever played as scum on mafiascum.

And now I found it!

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17140&start=250

I attacked someone for being bad while giving them advice on how to improve, and basically just stating general mafia theory. Then I get voted for it and quit. Admittedly, I don't like that example because it was so old, but it's the only time I've been scum and not in IRC.

In IRC, I was lynch for lurking through Lylo and laid as low as humanly possible.

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #664 on:** April 06, 2012, 03:06:14 AM »

Dan's claim is town and he's not getting lynched. Did Conq ever say this? He should have.

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #665 on:** April 06, 2012, 03:09:33 AM »

The people who reacted to Dan's claim with "oh, yeah, I believe that claim" followed by an immediate unvote with no further explanation are also town.

This is pretty obviously Functional Vanilla Mafia, by the way. <_< Why am I not surprised that Bob replaced out. I really wish Dan hadn't claimed his role's mechanics, though.

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #666 on:** April 06, 2012, 03:09:47 AM »

Bard, not Bob.

Affinity · « **Reply #667 on:** April 06, 2012, 03:49:59 AM »

@capt.h: As scum I like to bus my buddies and keep my votes on one place. But yeah, capt.h, when the principles of WIFOM get WIFOMed themselves, you know that you have gone completely bonkers.

Preambles:

1) Lynching priorities from scum's PoV D1: fellow scumbuddy < Dorian < random town
2) Dan is probably town due to claim and because the Dan wagon swelled to L-1 after I tied it 4-4, implying that scum may be behind the move.
3) Those who unvoted and persisted in doing so after Dan got to L-1 are probably town (rawr, maybe Serela but he's confusing and was waffly over his position on Dan)
4) Those who voted Dorian early, I feel, are town for now (Conq, IHNM) , though of course, scum might decide to devote a minority to the Dorian wagon to spread out their votes.

===

That said, about Omba, compare his reaction to Dorian's claim:

Quote

Dorian's claim: Does not seem like a scum claim to me at all and I doubt it's a third party claim. Though given the box trolling it doesn't tell us anything about whether there actually is a cult (or any ITP for that matter).

to his reaction to Dan's claim.

Quote

Btw that Dan claim is a) not provable without him telling us how it works and more importantly b) doesn't tell us anything about his alignment.

and it seems that these two are incongruent, since a) (if there was no cult as he himself suggested) and b) for the second quote was applicable to Dorian as well, but he did not exercise this sort of critical thinking with Dorian's claim. Also, although Dan and Dorian were town reads for him at some point in D1, he did not use their content to judge them on the claims at all. Fits in line with the preambles I stated, and thus I think Omba should be lynched for today.

##Vote: Omba

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #668 on:** April 06, 2012, 04:05:25 AM »

Supertown: Dan, Serela, Rawr (though Rawr is scum with a town role PM <_<)

Omba is scum.

Quote from: Omba on April 03, 2012, 05:52:31 PM

Dan is town and Dorian is most likely also town.

He never made any distinction between them from then until deadline. That line also makes Dan sound like he was townier, even though he ended up being Omba's preferred vote.

##Vote Omba
Keep in mind that letting the cultvig live is pro-scum, cult is a danger to both town and scum and cult dying = free non-scum kills. (cut by affinity saying something very similiar, yup)

Also, not fond of him buddying up to LLD, which is one reason I presume that he voted Dan. It's scummy when neutral, back-row players do this to pro-active and hostile town reads, because then they're trying to avoid drawing the hostility toward them.

I like my predecessor's case on Bob. Bob needs to explain why he thinks being conservative with his vote justified not taking any strong stances D1 when there are past games on record where he was using his vote to pressure people as town. Feel that he would be best suited as a vig target rather than a lynch, though, but I'd be down with LALu if an actual vig dies or doesn't show up. Sick Facts: any role madness set-up without a functioning vig is 100% terrible for dashing everybody's expectations

not strongly reading anybody else as scum, want to hear from Dormio about somebody other than Dan very soon though because tunneling is hard to make anything out of.

Shadoweh · « **Reply #669 on:** April 06, 2012, 04:31:25 AM »

This Game Is a Functional Twenty-First Votecount

Action Dan (1): Dormio
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Action Dan
Mr. Bob (1): I have no name
huh what (3): capt.h, Lady Lambdadelta, Omba
Omba (2): Affinity, huh what

Not voting: Serela, Dr. Rawr, Mr. Bob, BT, Chaore

Boxes Opened: Serela, Action Dan, Lady Lambdadelta

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

There are 67 hours remaining.
Day End Countdown

Omba · « **Reply #670 on:** April 06, 2012, 04:39:34 AM »

Quote from: huh what on April 06, 2012, 04:05:25 AM

Omba is scum.He never made any distinction between them from then until deadline. That line also makes Dan sound like he was townier, even though he ended up being Omba's preferred vote.

Maybe, just maybe the difference in actions that Dan and Dorian showed after that post might have something to do with it.

Quote

Keep in mind that letting the cultvig live is pro-scum, cult is a danger to both town and scum and cult dying = free non-scum kills. (cut by affinity saying something very similiar, yup)

That only works if scum a) assume there actually is a cult, b) assume Dorian would be able to find that cult, c) the vig would not be recruitable (and the cult recruiter would not die when targeting scum), d) expect the cult to be a bigger danger than the distraction it presents to town would be worth and e) do not expect someone else to come up with that reasoning.
For e), take a quick look at this post where LLD presents exactly the reasoning you're using here for why keeping the vig alive is beneficial to mafia. Now if I was really buddying up to LLD as you think I was, it seems rather likely that I would have read and noticed that point.
For some reason, I can't see keeping a vig alive that might perhaps hit a cult that might pose a danger to scum as more important than avoiding to get lynched for keeping that vig from getting lynched.

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Also, not fond of him buddying up to LLD, which is one reason I presume that he voted Dan. It's scummy when neutral, back-row players do this to pro-active and hostile town reads, because then they're trying to avoid drawing the hostility toward them.

Yes, because someone that knows LLD's meta will assume that buddying up to her will prevent her from suspecting him. Oh wait.

Quote

I like my predecessor's case on Bob.

Proceeds to keep his vote on the obvious lurker.

Summary: I'm his best scumread and all he comes up with as a case on me is bullshit reasoning. His only other major suspect is the easy-target lurker. Thanks for being so obvious, scum.

ActionDan · « **Reply #671 on:** April 06, 2012, 04:45:13 AM »

I'm going to be scarce again over the weekend. I guess I have to look into Omba again but I was ok with his Early/Midish D1 even though i disagreed with what he had on BT.

Still think LLD is scum and at least should be LOOKED at today.

Seriously

"Claim changes nothing for me"

"##Vote: Conq"

No explaination of what happened to me or why she's voting Conq.

Serela · « **Reply #672 on:** April 06, 2012, 05:03:29 AM »

At this point, I honestly can't tell if the reason I don't like Affinity's Omba case is because I'm getting biasy towards scum!affinity to the point of confirmation bias screwing with my read :c

They don't strike me right though.

Bahhhhh, for once (almost) everyone actually looks potentially scum to me. I'm used to having given a town read to at least half the living players by now. This is unsettling.

Dormio, LLD, and Bob need to show up and do something. I can't take Dormio's silly Dan vote seriously at all, if LLD had any reasons for voting Conq (Now HW) they're lost in the -ridiculously huge- d1 (I'm going to wait and hope they at least exist, though), and Bob is... well, we've gone over Bob.

I feel like something very important is going on, but that I can't tell what it is without flipping the major people involved, since I can't seem to read them.

Anyway, I'm going to sleep. See you tomorrow! (...not as in D3 tomorrow, but you know)

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #673 on:** April 06, 2012, 05:17:10 AM »

Two suspects is fine for D2 (or any day, really), first of all. Not wasting :words: on neutral reads, I hate wordcounts.

Quote from: Omba on April 06, 2012, 04:39:34 AM

Maybe, just maybe the difference in actions that Dan and Dorian showed after that post might have something to do with it.

How? This isn't on record, so I expect an explanation.

Quote from: Omba on April 06, 2012, 04:39:34 AM

That only works if scum a) assume there actually is a cult, b) assume Dorian would be able to find that cult, c) the vig would not be recruitable (and the cult recruiter would not die when targeting scum), d) expect the cult to be a bigger danger than the distraction it presents to town would be worth and e) do not expect someone else to come up with that reasoning.
For e), take a quick look at this post where LLD presents exactly the reasoning you're using here for why keeping the vig alive is beneficial to mafia. Now if I was really buddying up to LLD as you think I was, it seems rather likely that I would have read and noticed that point.
For some reason, I can't see keeping a vig alive that might perhaps hit a cult that might pose a danger to scum as more important than avoiding to get lynched for keeping that vig from getting lynched.

A - B can be attributed to scum assuming the worst. C is not an actual requirement for the cult to be dangerous to scum. D is a given.
You don't need to read somebody's posts to buddy up to them.
I'd argue you're less likely to fully read the posts of players you're buddying up to when you're scum, because if you're buddying up to them then you don't need to look for points of theirs to pick at. Speaking of which, if you disagreed that trying to keep Dorian's role alive would benefit scum, then why did you ignore this completely until it started to concern you personally instead of just the whole town?
Scum can and will try to lynch one townie over another depending on the PRs they want dead. It's not a problem if they think they can get away with not getting called out on it. LLD pointing out that scum would want Dorian around doesn't actually mean scum would expect to get called out on it and doesn't justify your scummy disconnect.

Affinity · « **Reply #674 on:** April 06, 2012, 05:27:34 AM »

Since I think Dan town by wagon analysis, this excabarates the blindspots in capt.h's confusing loud/quiet distinctions in D1 (e.g Conqueror) here, which he surprisingly spearheads as his main case today despite thinking him town from the D1 box fiasco. Other things of note include his reads on Chaore and Bob from here which have mysteriously disappeared, as well as me thinking that his Dan case (what with the 'timing' and other ridiculous things) the weakest (content-wise and conviction-wise) out of the early votes.

I don't know about BT; the beef I had with him D1 still stands, though not as pressing as it was then due to the wagon thing. I'm reading his completely useless LLD counterwagon attempt to be a nulltell, and I'll have to see further content from him. Same goes with Serela, who agrees and disagrees without justification and is useless in general.

I echo the need for Dormio to give out reads on people who aren't Dan, and answer how he could still think Dan scum despite being the main counterwagon to an anti-cult vig (?) and his roleclaim (which he still has not addressed).

===

@Omba: Saying that keeping the cultvig alive isn't a pro-scum thing ignores the fact that cult will probably win if they were left unchecked. Even if scum had doubts about the existence of a cult, there is no reason why they would not like an anti-cult vig as well as their NK and other hypothetical resources such as a rolecop to nail the recruiter. With this in mine, your different reactions to Dan and Dorian are suspect.

Also, calling my and HW's case something that a townie could not come up with is horrible when it's very clear that 1) you did not explain clearly as to why Dan's claim was good while Dorian's was bad and 2) you should have put out your reasoning ('the difference' in their actions) a long time ago. Would lynch immediately.

Omba · « **Reply #675 on:** April 06, 2012, 05:52:40 AM »

Quote from: huh what on April 06, 2012, 05:17:10 AM

Two suspects is fine for D2 (or any day, really), first of all. Not wasting :words: on neutral reads, I hate wordcounts.

Except when one case is lollurker and the other is so obviously bad.

Quote

How? This isn't on record, so I expect an explanation.

After the point you quoted earlier: Dorian acted like I would expect a townie to act in his situation. Whereas Dan went on what I considered to be a fakerage rampage.
Also the circumstances of his claim made him seem a lot less town to me.
Pointless anyway because I was wrong and now think Dan is town. Can reconstruct the thought process that led me to vote Dan in more detail if you want me to, though.

Quote

A - B can be attributed to scum assuming the worst.

A maybe. For B, I very much doubt scum would have expected Dorian to nail the cult recruiter. It was pretty obvious that he had a lot of trouble finding mafia; and finding a cult recruiter would be a lot more difficult still since he generally starts out alone and hence won't exhibit a lot of the things that can give scum away.

Quote

C is not an actual requirement for the cult to be dangerous to scum.

But a requirement for the vig to be of worth to the mafia.

Quote

D is a given.

No. That depends on the scum's assessment of the situation and thus on who is part of the scumteam.

Quote

I'd argue you're less likely to fully read the posts of players you're buddying up to when you're scum, because if you're buddying up to them then you don't need to look for points of theirs to pick at.

Given that you pointed out not getting targeted by the one you're buddying up to as a major reason for doing it, that is a load of TAVROS. If you're not carefully reading their posts, you're in danger of doing something else that person would consider to be scummy.

Someone post please, I need words.

Dormio Ergo Sum · « **Reply #676 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:00:03 AM »

Words.

You know I don't HAVE to count posts like this one. :V

Omba · « **Reply #677 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:00:38 AM »

More words.

Quote

Speaking of which, if you disagreed that trying to keep Dorian's role alive would benefit scum, then why did you ignore this completely until it started to concern you personally instead of just the whole town?

It would at that point not have benefitted town to point it out. If it's not something that can be used to discern who is scum, then what reason would I have to mention it? If anything, it would have increased the likelihood of Dorian getting lynched and since I thought a lot of other viable lynches where much more likely to be scum, that would have directly hurt town.

Quote

Scum can and will try to lynch one townie over another depending on the PRs they want dead. It's not a problem if they think they can get away with not getting called out on it. LLD pointing out that scum would want Dorian around doesn't actually mean scum would expect to get called out on it and doesn't justify your scummy disconnect.

TAVROS. Scum need to stay alive first and foremost. Any potential benefits one lynch may have over another beyond that objective pale in comparison to that.
Also, getting a specific person lynched requires a lot more orchestration than just getting someone other than scum lynched. Which in turn makes it much easier to spot the people that orchestrated the lynch for a reason other than getting their main suspect lynched. Which directly runs counter to scum objective #1 not getting caught.

Affinity: The horribad case on me by itself does not make HW scum, otherwise I would have called you out on it, too.

Mr_Bob · « **Reply #678 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:17:43 AM »

Firing players is a flavor vote from a null-tell role. Unfortunately, I was about two minutes late while summarizing my stance on Dorian.
The personal attack in question comes at the end of #585 where I felt he was trying to discredit the merits of the case that formed on him.

@Capt: Your system seems like it'd be inconsistent/ situational. Hope your experimental tells get results post-game analysis. Haven't rolled scum previous games, and I won't say anything about this game for sake of fairness.

Quote from: Ran Yakumo on April 05, 2012, 10:03:16 PM

Seriously.Is this supposed to be part of your reason to vote for LLD? I mean, it's a valid point and all you can deem to respond to it with is "I hate you."

If you're implying Dan's judgement was skewed by this personal feeling and used it to vote, that's actually in reference to Capt, not LLD.

Cut: Theory-crafting is painful, re-reading but getting this out first.

Also, the apology comes from me as a person, not from Bob as a player.

capt. h · « **Reply #679 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:29:07 AM »

Two things.

Quote from: huh what on April 06, 2012, 03:09:33 AM

This is pretty obviously Functional Vanilla Mafia, by the way. <_< Why am I not surprised that Bob replaced out. I really wish Dan hadn't claimed his role's mechanics, though.

Quote from: huh what on April 06, 2012, 03:09:47 AM

Bard, not Bob.

Why would you know why Bard replaced out?

Quote from: Mr. Bob on April 06, 2012, 06:17:43 AM

Haven't rolled scum previous games, and I won't say anything about this game for sake of fairness.

What does the bolded line even mean.

Affinity · « **Reply #680 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:32:43 AM »

Bob, vote someone now please. If you hadn't noticed, we are all horribly exasperated with you because you have not put down a single vote once in the entire game. Being 'conservative' with it does not cut it; votes are the main means by which town tracks a person's opinions and stances, and your not using them is causing you to become unreadable and a liability to town. So yes, please vote someone.

BT · « **Reply #681 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:57:29 AM »

Omba continues with his supertunnelling and somehow I've disappeared from being obvscum, but somehow I still don't read him as scum. Reread is in order probs.

Dan is head-on with #671.

##Vote LLD

Less extreme than Omba but still she tunneled on Dan for the entire D1. And then she disregarded his claim, which means she's sold he's scum.

And then she forgets about all that and votes Conq/HW which I can only see as a "welp Dan is pretty much unlynchable now better forget about him" thing.

Rereading people like Dormio/Affinity/Omba/Bob now.

Dormio Ergo Sum · « **Reply #682 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:01:47 AM »

Quote from: Mr. Bob on April 06, 2012, 06:17:43 AM

If you're implying Dan's judgement was skewed by this personal feeling and used it to vote, that's actually in reference to Capt, not LLD.

See, this is why working on assignments while skimming through mafia is a bad idea.
Either way, I still don't really see what makes Dan to be townie. Whatever.
RE: Dan's claim, it looks genuine enough but I don't see it as meaning anything in regards to his alignment.

capth's whole meta thing a page back hurts my head. My eyes just kind of glazed over when I tried to read it. I'll give it another shot later.

Ugh, I need to sit down and actually read what's been happening today.

BT · « **Reply #683 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:05:22 AM »

Dormio, you're still voting Dan for "why would you do this" stuff without explaining why it makes him scum.

I don't remember an opinion of anyone other than Dan from you. The whole game. ~___~

Back to reading.

Dormio Ergo Sum · « **Reply #684 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:06:42 AM »

If my reasons are really that un-self-explanatory, then I'll make a post later going over them.
Meanwhile, reading.

Lexicat · « **Reply #685 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:21:20 AM »

Oh that's right.

I was voting Conq because his posting felt lackluster and forced.

And then he replaced out which kinda makes sense.

But now I'm reminded of who actually needs to die.

##Vote:BT

Because of everything I pointed out yesterday, and because his reasoning for voting me is completely BEHIND MY BOTTOM and, once again, looks totally fabricated.

BT · « **Reply #686 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:27:23 AM »

You're still missing a scumread.

BT · « **Reply #687 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:30:39 AM »

And

>it looks fabricated

you gave the exact same excuse for your vote on Dan yesterday.

Not to mention I should be saying the same about your vote seeing how it came to be.

>Case that is like okay then
BT is misguided.

>Case
BT needs death.

All the things you pointed out yesterday was AFTER you decided I'm scum for completely untownlike reasons.

BT · « **Reply #688 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:42:37 AM »

Not to mention you're attacking my vote and not Dan's even though they're pretty much the same.

This whole turning a blind eye to Dan all of a sudden is horrible.

BT · « **Reply #689 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:54:02 AM »

Clarification for those who need it: it's horrible because it means she wasn't convicted behind her Dan case, aka HER ENTIRE D1.

I'd be happy if people can explain the phenomenon that is "I read LLD as town" to me, especially if it's not a result of "meh, she LOOKS town" from the formerly mentioned conviction that now disappeared into thin air.