So You Want To Be The Townest Mafia (Thread 1)

[Dorian White]

So I'm back but still not in the picture as I would like to be but that can't be helped right now. I need a case and a vote first, then I can spend time on sorting the other stuff out.

First, I really dislike the generalized assumption that a certain alignment will participate in the speculation more or less then the other. I can see the reason behind both assumptions, so it may help as a starting point but putting too much focus on it at a later point would be worrisome at best. Having this said ?

##Vote: capt. h

Not only that you vote him for being honest enough to mention a possible flaw in his plan it also contradicts your ?Town will  participate in the speculation more then scum? assumption, what's kinda silly cause we talk about Dan who is well known to jump into any kind of speculation at any point regardless of his alignment. Your reservation against the ?people who have not spoken during the speculation phase? is also worrisome for two reasons, first it's degraded your Dan vote to a voteparck cause you said yourself the your suspicion goes into other directions and second, it puts you in the same ?lay low? position you are trying to condemn with your earlier assumption.

More will come after I had lunch and more time to read.

[Mr_Bob]

@Omba: Well aware of LLD's #141; still want some elaboration on the non-quote part. Cut: Halfway down your #176 you forgot to say your "he" is referring to BT.

@Affinity: Roger. Wilco.

Serela and Dan are both making bad plays.  Affinity's #158 on Serela consolidates well, but can't bring myself to see eye to eye, I do not place much stock on the "slip-up", Serela's reaction seems genuine because he thought Affinity was putting words in his mouth.  Dan is trying to get some organization, which can be good, but not comfortable with way he would shoehorn town when it's been said either alignment could throw the box again.  Also, feel it's bad play to vote Affinity for nigh "anyone will do" reasons. 

NoName feels like he's being swept along in the current of the game, need more input. Cut: Plus the case against him just washed away.

BT #172 admits to not having strong convictions, fine.  Proceeds with line of questioning, that Conq's vote could be carryover (could be chance).  Will be watching how this plays out.

[capt. h]

i think i was thinking something about capt. h but he has the power to make mortal men want to devour flesh so i think that's normal

SUPER POWERS WOHOO!

I DEffinitely would like to hear Affinity explain when NeoSerela EVER suggessted we Lynch All Lurkers as areason for voting Dan, because I don't remember that at all.

I may be premature, but it looks like Dan's doing that thing where he only talks just enough to avoid a prod when everyone is voting for him. It's how he's traditionally avoided D1 lynches as scum when he has attracted a wagon; letting someone else take the spotlight when his wagon got tired of not having anything to go off of and a townie somewhere stuck his foot in his mouth. Course, the best way to see if that's what he's doing is to keep right on voting him for playing like scum Dan plays.

Serela is town by way of trying to hard. He ain't UK, I don't believe he posts 8x more often as scum than as town.

Honestly, Chaore and Bob are both guilty of setting off the scum tells I developed while I was away from mafia. I'd like to see what Bob does with the answers to the questions he asks, and I'd like Chaore to try to be active and make himself center stage. Most scum won't take the center especially day 1, because if they do then town has lots of information to go off of. And Chaore explicitly promised to stay at the sidelines.

HOWEVER, THERE IS NO WAY I'LL MOVE MY VOTE BEFORE DAN POSTS. Dan has gotten away with murder simply by lurking out the fallout of the scumy things he said as scum, and he shouldn't be allowed to do it in this game.

- cut by vote for me -

Exeeded word limit with response. DARN IT.

[ActionDan]

I'm right here.

My internet got cut last night and a few hours before that I was working.  I was incredibly pissed off last night at a few choice people but I feel a bit better now.  I'm working right now but in a few hours I'll be rereading.

[capt. h]

THANKS FOR POSTING

-response to Dorian-

WOHOO DAY 1 LYNCH OR TOWNIE OBVTOWN BABY

That was my goal this game. I'm worried I'm failing it ;_;

ALSO, WHAT DO YOU MEAN I'M LAYING LOW DURING THE SPECULATION PHASE. I POSTED OUTRIGHT MY OPINIONS ON HOW TO HANDLE THE BOX.

I'M EVEN USING CAPSLOCK.

Anyways, I can see why you dislike my thinking about one alignment being more prone to speculation than the other, and I understand completely why you don't like it. I'm not voting on the tells everyone AGREES with, I'm voting on the tells which seem true to me based on my experience. WHICH IS WHY I EXPLICITLY MENTION CHAORE'S GAME - TO EXPLAIN WHERE I FIRST NOTICED THE TELL. I firmly believe speculation, while bad, tends to be town and not speculating is something scum is more likely do to look town because everyone assumes its good.

[BT]

Having a case made of BS and dumb is scummy, especially if the person who made that case should know better. (This is not the same as having a case I wouldn't agree with, that isn't explicitly scummy)

You're joking, right? You're saying that experienced players can't play bad because they know better. Affinity's play the game before this one counters this argument.

We are all human, therefore we all make mistakes. Scum like to capitalize on mistakes instead of scummy behavior for their cases. I feel that you are at least slightly guilty of this, therefore I keep pointing it out.

By the by, Serela,  you never elaborate on "why I hate BT". All you're doing so far is lite-cheerleading with "I just hate him, I don't think he's scum yet", which... I don't know what to make of this line at all.

Yeah no, "please excuse me for putting out RAINBOW reads because all my other reads are useless but I need to vote someone" doesn't cut it.

Nope, not what went on at all. I think my vote, despite not having very strong conviction behind it, is perfectly fine, seeing as it's still early, and had I thought it was too weak I wouldn't have put it down in the first place. I'm not hungry for blood but the vote is far from forced.

Conq's vote on you isn't unjustified, it's just awkward. So far all he's been doing is asking questions and sharing suggestions. Which were fine, yes, but notice that his only real involvement in this game was his by the by comment on how his vote is staying on your because *reason*. I thought it's lazy scumhunting, but it may be an attempt to be subtle as well. Which is just as bad, if not worse.

Will be doing some more reading before I continue. Plus, I bet I'm nearing the vote limit by now. Or I don't know how to count. That's a pretty real possibility.

[BT]

Word limit. What is a vote limit anyway? :V

[capt. h]

Posting for BT's CONVENIENCE  :dealwithit:

[BT]

Done "reading", since apparently there was next to nothing that needs reading and oh boy nothing's changed!

I can't tell if the fact that Omba added to/changed his case on me midway is scummy or not. At first he was attacking my bad reads, then he moves on to explain that my read was constructed, which is a lot stronger, and should not have been left out in his original post. (I don't agree with any of this, since I had no reason to 'go after Conq' of all people, but kay)

[Shadoweh]

Even Fifth Votecount Has To Sleep Sometimes

Affinity (1): Serela
capt.h (2) : Action Dan, Dorian G
Omba (2): Conqueror, Kitten4u
Action Dan (3): Lady Lambdadelta, Dormio, capt.h
Serela (2): Dr. Rawr, Affinity
Mr. Bob (1): I have no name
Conqueror (1): BT
BT (2): Chaore, Omba
Dormio (0):
Kitten4u (0):
Dr. Rawr (0):
I have no name (0):
Chaore: (0):

Not voting: Mr. Bob

Holding the Box: Affinity

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
There are 73 hours remaining.
Day End Countdown

Box Timer: 25:22:47
Box Timer Countdown

[Dr Rawr]

##Unvote
##Vote: I have no name

IHNN reads scum to me after that post. You're passing serela as scum because of px? Box talking isnt a way to determine scum. How is affinity play style scummy? you seemed to have agreed with the slip-up he mentioned serela, do you still agree with that?

Serela dont act like youre the townest thing out there. Your cases on actiondan and affinity sum up to bad play, but you know what? IHNN is right there ignoring parts of peoples posts and not to mention going after SUCH an easy target. Oh and your OMGUS vote on affinity. Giving reasons as to why im probably scum and saying null wont pass, in fact is makes no sense.

Omba why are you going, "serela bein serela" and "dan bein dan" thats not helping and shouldnt pass people off as not scum for that reason

Oh and I dont think theres any problem with box talk. It doesnt count as a "smoke screen" if 3 different people mention that. So quit trying to say box talk is scummy and getting some imaginary town cred.

[Chaore]

@Affinity: ...and? I'm not voting him because he thinks theres something wrong with Conq, I'm voting him because his vote is forced and has no actual conviction after basically floating around and reacting to things early game. He's not actually trying to scumhunt in my eyes, he's just floating and poking and placing obligatory votes and defending himself. He's not trying to hunt down teh scums he just wants a vote. This is irregardless of if I think Conq needs to talk more.

@Capt.: stop using them in mafia, it's cheating. When I said I didn't give two PLATIPI about the box, I meant it because by all means I was expecting it'd become SILLY wifom about whats in it and arguing about who we should give it to as such. I stayed out until later both due to taking 7 hours to make that last post, and plain being busy. You're basically trying to dress Lynch All Lurkers up here, and you should know that DARN TOOTIN well.

Stop and think about what you're saying.

@Rawrcut: oh hey glad to see you're finally doing something other than begging for the box.

Explain the last part of your post in more depth. I don't see how people mentioning things that you do not define dissuades the fact that the box is essentially an excuse to talk about something that isn't other people and instead wifom about what the box does and what should be done with it.

[Dr Rawr]

Thats not really what i meant. I dont get why its necessary for people to mention multiple times about "smoke screen" for scum. I dont like how people are going after other people JUST because of box talking, its lazy and we shouldnt be labeling people as scum for that.  Not to mention im pretty sure the word "hypocrisy" was thrown around a couple of times in some posts.

It does suck not getting the box....

[capt. h]

@Capt.: stop using them in mafia, it's cheating. When I said I didn't give two PLATIPI about the box, I meant it because by all means I was expecting it'd become SILLY wifom about whats in it and arguing about who we should give it to as such. I stayed out until later both due to taking 7 hours to make that last post, and plain being busy. You're basically trying to dress Lynch All Lurkers up here, and you should know that DARN TOOTIN well.

Stop and think about what you're saying.

Alright, well, here's the thingy I'm kinda sorta ABSOLUTELY getting at.

While I was away, I decided that those super boring traditional ways of making cases didn't apply one iota to day 1, where at best all cases are weak and misinformed. As in, I decided that the day 1 scum lynch rate was worse than random chance.

So I looked around for new thingies that actually did apply to scummies on day 1. I DEcided before the game began that I would rely on those things that scum actually did and didn't do instead of traditional cases.

Scum lurked, typically posted enough to avoid prods (not always, but they were never the lurkiest when they did), tended to stay out of the setup madness, and were generally boring and never the center of attention. A lot of them tended to lurk/shut up whenever they had a lot of votes on them.

So... I kinda sorta decided to base town/scum on who was drawing the most/least attention and getting burned for it, and decided to forget traditional tells in favor of my new one, since the old ones just get townies kiled. At least on day 1.

Noise generation is TOWN. Hiding is SCUM. This would let me actually hit scum, even when scum hasn't posted enough for me to make a valid case using the traditional methods.

[I have no name]

You're passing serela as scum because of px?

Affinity and Serela lean towards scum, with Serela the scummier of the 2, though that may be either
 A: PX influence for Serela (because PX always seems scummy)

I can see where you'd get that impression from what I said, but it's not what I meant.  I felt that Serela and Affinity were scummy, but having lack of evidence I realized that there may be reasons not related to gameplay.  PX influencing Serela posts could have been one of the reasons, just due to playstyle.  I was not trying to imply I thought Serela was scum because he has a hydra with PX, more that Serela having a hydra with PX may be influencing my impressions.

IHNN is right there ignoring parts of peoples posts

Ignoring, misinterpreting and misrepresenting are 3 different things.  I have not actively ignored parts of posts, nor have I tried to misrepresent what anyone said.  This leaves misinterpretations, which are scummy how?

[Dr Rawr]

I dont care what you call it, it adds up to bad play serela is ignoring and going after dan and affinity for the same reasons

[Lexicat]

Bob, I'm going to re-iterate what I said once again.
 
I gave my reasons for voting Dan. If you can't see what I'm voting Dan for in the post I referenced, then there isn't much I can do to help you.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

The mod tells me to post something equivalent to "fluffy bunnies" in the topic to avoid getting tarred or whatnot.
And so, I will write "awesome firetrucks" instead.
Sorry, but I'm going to be unable to follow the thread for roughly a day while I get on top of uni commitments.

[Shadoweh]

Dormio has requested 24 hours V/LA. Players will not be made immune to any actions while V/LA, but requests will be announced.

[Dorian White]

I admit that lay low was the wrong word choice, the more correct phrasing would be ?lean back and lats town mess up on it's own?. I guess we can agree that this would be a fitting description of the tail you are looking for and I'm on the edge to decide if you use this method while condemning it or not. I also can't say that your still quite reserved position isn't helping here.

... WHICH IS WHY I EXPLICITLY MENTION CHAORE'S GAME - TO EXPLAIN WHERE I FIRST NOTICED THE TELL. ...

You don't talk about IMP Mafia, do you? Cause I'm quite sure that Dan was town that game and a distracting noise as always.

This is interesting in so far as I still don't see how your Dan vote fits into this picture. I mean he already generated enough noise to make himself the leading wagon, as much as you can call three votes a leading wagon, and you can't go on and say he ?hides? it out before he actually did it.

I also have to say that this game starts to get kinda frustrating for me cause I get that feeling that this plain inconsequential manner comes actually from a town player.

[capt. h]

Dan generated just enough noise to get 3 players to vote him, then hasn't said anything interesting (or at all, besides I'll be back later) since. I'm going to keep right on voting the guy until he says something that makes me think he's townie. Because this is how he handled being scum in magical madness mafia. Every one of his day 1 posts were terrible or mediocre or promises to get back to us later, bringing turning himself into a wagon. Then he totes lurks as much as possible without receiving a prod, so much so that he didn't have time to give us the content he promised.

WE have the early game slipup followed by the promise to get back to us later prod dodge.

But if you want to know what was going through my mind AT THE TIME, it was that I couldn't see anyone really responding scummily to the box, because they all kinda drowned themselves in it. WHICH MEANT LOOK AT CHAORE OR BOB. NEITHER OF THEM HAVE IMPRESSED ME. Bob forgot to but his vote down so he's the better of the two, but that gets into icky wi-fomy arguments and bleh. Chaore however, has done the scummy response of disregarding the box as a smokescreen and discouraging box talk (which I explained was scummy In My Reads) makes an alright case on BT for being scum, says Serela's suspicious, and then doesn't really offer opinions on anyone else but gets reporter on a bunch of players, including myself.

Course, you can't vote a player for not talking 6 hours into the game. That's just plain rude. And Dan did that thing where he buddied up to me which he's done as scum, to me personally, if I recall correctly, which saying he agreed with my reasons on Rawr without elaborating. And then there's that 3-4 townie wagon thingy, bleh, bad idea. SO I VOTED HIM. I DON'T LIKE BEING BUDDIED UP TO.

Anyway, since then Chaore confirmed my suspicions, with all the reportering and lack of opinions, but I CAN'T JUST UNVOTE DAN WHILE HE'S STILL BEING SCUM DAN. And the best way to catch scum Dan is to keep voting him until he's town dan, because LAST time I took my vote off him for playing like he's playing right now, he flipped scum and we missed him on the day 1 lynch instead making dual wagons between townie cops.

[Omba]

Omba why are you going, "serela bein serela" and "dan bein dan" thats not helping and shouldnt pass people off as not scum for that reason

Because attacking them for being themselves is useless. They will post things I can actually use for reading intent (example being that thing of Serela's I quoted a few posts ago) and I will base my read of them off of that. As it stands, lynching them would amount to flipping a coin and that's RAINBOWS.

Will be watching how this plays out.

Will be taking part in how this plays out would be preferable. You're also currently the only person without any vote whatsoever. Make up your mind and do something.

BT: (#185) You're using a lot of words without actually addressing anything about your case. No, "I think my vote is perfectly fine" doesn't cut it when I've just cut it apart from basically every direction.
Btw, nice going there. People you recently mentioned: Your bad case (Conq), one of the people that attacked you for it (me) and... one of the current wagons (Serela).
(#188) What exactly about developing a case further when asked to elaborate on it is (maybe) scummy (is it actually scummy, or not?)? Also note that I did not change my case as you state. Everything I've later explained in more detail was already in my original post where I voted you.

There's a few people that haven't said much or even nothing at all for quite a while now. Please do post. Specifically looking at Kitten4U, LLD, Dan and (to a lesser extent) Dorian and Conq here.

--cut by Dorian saying something
Do you have opinions on people that are not-capt.-h?
Wait... what? I somehow missed capt. h was actually voting Dan of all people for those reasons.
...
capt. h: You do realise that while Dan currently fits the "lurking it up" part of your criteria, he sure as FLUFFY is getting burned. And not for the lurking, at that (except by you). And has involved himself quite a bit in the setup speculation. Something does not match up there. Except if you're specifically voting him for the lurking-after-getting-voted part -only-.

--cut by capt. h /reading

[Omba]

That actually explains things.

[Omba]

Dorian: Your last sentence makes keeping your vote on him kind of pointless then.

[Lexicat]

Dorian is probably scum btw.

[Kitten4u]

@Capth: I think the box speculation is different in this case.  Role discussion is traditionally "anti-town," but this isn't role discussion.  No one outs their abilities, no one hints if they have one, and by commenting on box shenanigans scum don't risk making it obvious their role PM isn't like the town role PM or forcing themselves into a particular role claim later.  Plus, since this looks like a bomb, they have to worry about it potentially killing them.  Anyway, I just think you're looking at the wrong things here.  You can't apply solid rules to things without understanding why scum act a certain way.  Mafia just doesn't work like that.

With that said, more box speculation.  I don't understand why people are suggesting we use it for anything but a second lynch.  On a real wagon.  The vig option is just if we're too incompetent to do that.  Do people not realize how powerful this is?  We'll have a wagon to analyze without scum getting a NK.  It's like being able to have D2 before the scum any any kills at all.  This is a big deal people.  Even if scum try to avoid the wagons since we can't put anyone at L-1 they'll have to have a reason for avoiding them and we can use that as part of the wagon analysis.  The only downside to blowing up one of the 2 - 3 wagons that'll likely form is that it might hit town, which isn't really that much of a downside considering how D1 is.

I'd like everyone that thinks a different method is better to explain why their idea is better than having a free wagon to analyze.

##Unvote
##Vote Dorian

Of the three I mentioned in my first post I still think Omba's the worst, but his recent posts make him more town than Dorian.  His first post is pure box speculation (and I already explained how I feel about that), and the posts after are comments on one person, and it doesn't even read like he really believes in the case.

I have more stuff to say, but I'm about out of words.  Can someone post? :V

[I have no name]

I dont care what you call it, it adds up to bad play serela is ignoring and going after dan and affinity for the same reasons

...ok, so if misinterpreting is bad play, and you misinterpreted me, then you're playing badly.

Keep going K4u.

[Affinity]

You voted Dan because he box voted me, didn't he?  Dan's reasoning behind the vote was that since no one seemed very scummy to him, he might as well put it on someone who hadn't posted yet (LAL), which you took issue with.  And I take issue with that, in return.

As for what I think on Dan, I already said here that I thought your case on him was myopic in that Dan can freely change votes and the reasoning behind it.  It was premature for you to assume otherwise as the crux of your case against him.  He's null in your eyes.

Having a case made of BS and dumb is scummy, especially if the person who made that case should know better

This is very naive view of human psychology, and it might even be hypocritical in your case.

As for you knowing yourself to be the towniest player by virtue of mod confirmation, yes, I know that. But nobody other then you does.

And nobody other than me shall keep the box.  I'm not getting why you think the opinions of many should supersede mod confirmation from my point of view.  As long as I have the chance to vig scum, I will do it with minimal risk of passing it to scum.  The idea that you don't trust town to 'pull off the pressure' against me is nothing but self-centered.

===

That said, despite Serela's response (and new cases and scumreads) being unimpressive, I suppose the 'contradiction' thing is a moot point if he so fully believes in it.  Will change my vote given new content.

It's nice to tag team with K4u.

##Unvote

[Kitten4u]

\o/

Comments on current wagons

I don't like the BT wagon at all.  It looks like people are attacking a confused player for being confused and going for the best thing he has in said confusion.

The Serela wagon is incredibly silly and I don't understand why it exists.  Looks like people are attacking him for being loud.

I suppose I can get behind the Dan wagon since he's voting someone he thinks is town and is random voting for the box vote, but I don't find the case very strong.  It's the best of the three wagons right now.

This worries me somewhat because I want us to start thinking about consolidating the wagons, but I think they all suck. :V

---

To elaborate on Dorian, I don't understand where his accusations are coming from.  How is Capth on the edge of things?  He's been making quite a bit of noise in my opinion.  What's wrong with his view about speculation?  I think that he's wrong too, but why is it worrying?  Is worrying scummy?  Do you have opinions on people that aren't Capth?

[Affinity]

##Vote: Conqueror

The idea behind this vote lies in my post here, as well as BT's vote.  Conqueror at first votes Omba and renews his vote twice with new questions, both here (box issue), and here (case issue), and I get the feeling that the questioning is stretched beyond its course and that his vote is wasting away as a vote-park, since he doesn't seem to publicly address Omba's answers.  With the latest post he seems to hint at having some opinions on IHNM and others, but so far he hasn't commented on other people or the main wagons, and his current case isn't strong enough to excuse him from these.

As for Chaore, the thing is that you are questioning Conq for exactly the same reasons as BT is voting him (e.g what of your vote on Omba, etc.) .  Despite your sound criticisms against BT (e.g the hypocrisy, etc.), it's interesting that you do not sympathize with his case on the above level.

Bob, you seem to have narrowed down your choice on either Serela or Dan.  Who do you dislike more, and who would you vote?  Nameless, conversely, seems to be passive-aggressive and talking about things (reads on me and Serela) 2 pages ago; his failure to take Bob's new post into account for his vote feels fishy, but so far this is still consistent with what I've seen of him as town.

As for lynch candidates, I would choose the Dan wagon above all else at the moment, though of course this might change when he eventually posts.  My opinion on Serela is still pending on whether (or how) he keeps his 'bad case' case against me and what he has to say on BT and others.