IMP MAFIA - TOWN VICTORY

[BT]

Oh, and there's also the fact that Serela's play so far has been reflecting his claim flawlessly.

[BT]

Also, stuff on Affinity's Crabs case.

I actually agree with everything it contains, but ~logic~ exists and is making me point out the obvious:

If Crabs is scum, one of the following is true:
*His TC did exactly what he claimed it did. Therefore, scum know of Vanilla!Schezo and NK him anyway. Unlikely as all hell, unless they wanted to waste a one-time thing and a NK to maybe clean one of their guys. Which is unlikely as well.
*He's something else, his TC did something else, and scum NKed him knowing exactly what happened to him. Seeing as the flavor surrounding the whole thing hints that whatever Crabs did was definitely not positive on Schezo's end, I'm having a hard time picturing scenarios in which scum would follow up with a NK.

If Crabs is town, everything makes a lot more sense.

So, do you believe that he is as scum-like as you claim he is, despite his TC? If so, why?

[Dr Rawr]

BT have you considered headcrabs is just trolling and doing his own thing as scum? If you look at his posts none of it adds up and kind of does contradict himself a couple times. Like when he says how me and shadoweh voted for town hero, but so did he...

[Dr Rawr]

If you ignored the his true claim what would you think?

[BT]

#224. He's not trolling about the TC.

I thought his one insightful post was good. Then there's Affinity's case, which, without the TC, would make me think he's, erm, more scum than not.

[Dr Rawr]

i meant hes trolling in the aspect hes doing what ever he wants

[BT]

That kind of thing is annoying, not a scumtell.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

So lets try to play, after reading through Dormios and Dans posts I found some points that could use some clarification.
@Dormio: I have seen you asking a lot of questions but to be honest I find it quite difficult to tell where you have your priorities. As far as I can see is your currently order Dan is scum, PX is scummy and his flip ?provides information?, Affinity is scummy too and Sarela is useless. Is this correct?

I can agree with the first one, mostly cause Dans case on Bared don't strikes me as true and his attempt to justify his distracting setup speculations is just beyond good and evil, but I'm not sure if I see how PX flip would be ?helpful in helping you to organize your thoughts?.

Hi Dorian!
Roughly, yes. Though there are more useless people than just Serela. Affinity is scummy too, but not as much as PX or Dan.
As for why PX's flip would help me organize my thoughts regarding Affinity, explanation in #399. Also, my mind is an enigma that is barely held together by large amounts of duct tape.

Anyway, reading the stuff that happened while I was asleep.

[Shadoweh]

Dan is suspicious for other reasons. Any reason you choose to misrep it as that?

Shadoweh's Summaries(TM) Do not promise to be as accurate as your wall of text. If you feel you're being misrepresented include a summary of the reasons you think are correct for your money back.

The idea would be that he doesn't govern the primary lynch, but a secondary person that we don't mind losing if he is lying scum. We had the same argument about capt.h's claim. I keep wavering over this because of how risky proving a governor could be,, but I think I'm going to stand firm. Dan isn't scum. He claimed to be able to die too early, and he claimed he can prove it to us when people were looking to lynch him. We can get a bit more proof about this by just waiting to see if there's twilight tonight. It should last longer if Dan doesn't answer right away, right?

BT read, PX: That one game where I was wrong for a brief period of time about him after he claimed something that sounded good? It doesn't mean I'm going to be wrong every time. I've had good games and terrible games and I don't deserve the discredit I'm getting from at least four people for one that ended in a god damn TOWN WIN.

Read anyone saying "Hero was scummy so his wagon is useless to analyze." Do you remember when Affinity, who was scum last game, said this about Helepolis? That because he was scummy his wagon meant nothing? There's a reason the scum was saying it. It's because Hero was such an easy town lynch that there must be scum on his wagon. You better believe scum hopped on like there was a free candy sale. I fully believe if we lynch all three of the people left as suspects (four if you're willing to headcrabs) we'll find some scum there.

Dan, Rawr, Affinity. Search and we WILL find scum somewhere on here. Keine told me to go after Affinity. I'm beginning to wonder if I have an addiction to trying to get him vigged.

[Shadoweh]

oh god work I'm late I'll be back in two hours

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

id put dormio for being town day vig, but i would be suspicious if he vigged the wrong person...

Uhh... wat?

If Dormio does not want to entertain this vig, he should explain in detail as to why.

Because I'd rather shoot PX or Dan. That, and I'm inclined to agree with Shadoweh in that his role looks town.

[BT]

Reversal already? But it's not even late-D4 yet!

I don't think I've sorted out my thoughts perfectly yet (I've had only like 2 hours to look at this thread today) but my gut feeling is quite strong in this one. So, story time.

I read through the thread (or, at least, attempt to) and Bard's case on Dan is just so... amazingly genuine that I reread Dan to find out some things:

I liked him before because of the way Schezo persued him. But Schezo flipped town so this is stupid. Then I liked him for his late D1. But the reason I liked him for that late D1 is suddenly extremely flawed. You know why?

To remind you of what it was - I thought the way Dan was questioning Hero after his claim was full of genuine townie concern.

But I only now realize that he did not do what was probably the most important thing, were he a concerned townie - unvote. He just stays on the wagon while showing concern, using stuff like PM details to show what a wonderful town PM he must have.

And I only notice now how really fucking bad this is.

There are other things I strongly agree with in Bard's case - Dan's overly strong town reads (and the need to show us that he has good reads), his insistence to die to his own ability and to his own ability only, his reactive scumhunting and so on.

And with all this, it's hard for me to maintain that Scum!Bard read. It's almost nonexistent now.

At least, that's what I want to say. Like I said, I don't have my shit sorted out yet and I'm not 1000000.0% sure about anything. Dan's early behavior with his openly claiming is still making me waver, and I still can't put to rest everything I found Bard scummy for yet. At least, not right now.

##Unvote


So it would actually help me immensely if a certain dayvig happened to flip Dan. His claim, if true, is stupidly useless anyway. Yeah, I know, saying this is pretty damn scummy of me, but I'm honestly torn and would bank on one of them (Dan or Bard) being scum. So, Dormio, you've got my support for a Danvig.

[Bardiche]

Shadoweh I want to think you're Town but you're not helping.

The idea would be that he doesn't govern the primary lynch, but a secondary person that we don't mind losing if he is lying scum. We had the same argument about capt.h's claim. I keep wavering over this because of how risky proving a governor could be,, but I think I'm going to stand firm.

Uh, no, we do not "lynch people we don't mind losing if he's lying scum", we lynch scum. Capiche? If Dan wants to prove he's Town he can do it like all other Town and that's by acting in a Townie manner and promoting Townie lines of thought, not by suggesting he kills himself to prevent a lynch on someone else.

Holy shit Shadoweh, why not just remove the entire risk factor and LYNCH DAN? This makes a certain amount of sense. Please consider:

A) If we lynch, say, PX as a test subject and let Dan govern it: if Dan is really a governor and he governs that lynch, Dan dies and PX, well, doesn't die. Dan becomes confirmed Town and Governor, also dead.

B) In the above, if Dan is in fact SCUM: we lynch PX, scum NK someone, we lynch Dan. We lose two townies and lynch one scum, assuming we don't, you know, lynch scum as "someone we won't mind missing": in this case I assume we'd let Dan govern a lynch we're not sold on. If we're letting Dan govern a lynch on what we think is scum you need a brain check.

C) Disregarding A) and B), if we lynch Dan we either A) lynch Town or B) lynch Scum. With A), we lynch Town but THAT'S THE SAME RESULT AS SITUATION A). With B), we lynch Scum, and we do NOT lynch a testing scapegoat.

Now I think Dan is Scum, so lynching him will be profit++. And in the situation described above, even if I DID think Dan was Town, the most optimal play would be to LYNCH DAN if you want to confirm his role. Moreover, blindly assuming Governor is a Town role in Role Madness seems gaming the setup too much, which I'm not inclined to do.

Stop clearing people based on roles and look beyond that.

[BT]

Bard, any objections to a vig instead?

[Bardiche]

To reiterate: there is no reason why we should clear Dan based on his role alone, as the only way he can prove it is by stopping Town's lynch, and we'd be crazy to use Town's prominent, guaranteed Town weapon on confirming the role of someone who'll die in the act instead of lynching Scum. And even if we did want to use it to confirm the role of someone who'd die in the act, there's no real disadvantage to lynching said person and removing the risk of him being lying Scum.

The only way your plan would ever work out is if Chaore comes in here and states that if a Lynch is Govern'd in the way Dan describes, the Day will be reset and we lynch anew without Night Phase. And even then we risk losing initiative to Scum for the sake of letting a Townie suicide.

Seriously, if Dan wants to suicide, do it the way the rest of DerpTown does: claim Scum. It makes zero sense! Using his role as a defence is honestly scummy by this point, as I showed above how lynching him beats having him suicide. We do not want our lynches of scummy people governed, and we certainly should not be looking to clear people based on their claims alone.



@BT: Vigging or lynching Dan is all the same to me. He's scummy and he must die.

[Bardiche]

I'm getting worked up. Because I recognise it also makes zero sense for Town to suggest letting them Govern anything, even with the above proviso that the Day MIGHT be reset if Dan governs the lynch. Why? Because what profit, what possible HELP would it be to Dan to kill himself? It'd be a -1 Townie for us at best. Get that through your skull, Shadoweh! Dan's entire spiel about his role comes down to the use of his role at best being -1 Townie, and at worst being -2 Townies and we do not get a lynch one day. There is pro-Town sentiment in his role. There's no profit to him using his role whatsoever aside from getting him killed, which is really something Townies should not be working towards.

[Bardiche]

EBWOP: No pro-Town sentiment in his role*

[BT]

Why is the new centerpiece in your efforts to lynch Dan now "look at how bad his role is"?

[BT]

Getting worked up about this is one thing, but you have to remember that we're lynching him due to being scum.

You're basically telling people to lynch him due to his role if they don't think he's scum. This reeks.

[Bardiche]

Exasperated reaction to Shadoweh clearing Dan solely by virtue of his role. I want her to look at him as a player, not as a role. The above is my excitable, exasperated way of pointing out that there's nothing pro-Town about his role and there's no profit to Town to confirm his role even if he were Town. Suggesting we do so is scummy because, as I point out, there's only loss to Town, and the only margin of profit in that he may be lying Scum is solved by never aiming to confirm his role anyway and lynching him either way.

I don't find him scum on role alone, but I want Shadoweh to completely and crystal-clearly understand why her sentiment that Dan is Town based on role is scummy as fuck because there's no profit to the suggestion of confirming his role, and he cannot in fact confirm his role in a way that benefits Town.


Also, that's putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that if you want to CONFIRM his role, the BEST way is to lynch him BECAUSE the act of confirming his role is ALWAYS a loss of Townies, irrespective of Dan's alignment, EXCEPTION only if we lynch Scum and Dan, being lying Scum, does not Govern that lynch because he does not have that ability.

[Bardiche]

Dan is still scum for everything I said here, and the entire rant above is in response to Shadoweh's:

The idea would be that he doesn't govern the primary lynch, but a secondary person that we don't mind losing if he is lying scum. We had the same argument about capt.h's claim. I keep wavering over this because of how risky proving a governor could be,, but I think I'm going to stand firm. Dan isn't scum. He claimed to be able to die too early, and he claimed he can prove it to us when people were looking to lynch him.

The entire proof about twilight stuff I don't consider because it's chancy as all get out and I certainly would not clear Dan by virtue of his role. Again, my entire rant above is to point out that there's no way that confirming his role is a pro-Town action. There's literally nothing we gain from confirming his role. There's literally no profit for Dan between suiciding and getting lynched for scummy behaviour.

[Dorian White]

That said I am thinking Bard is scummier than Schezo and I'll put this into words shortly.  (Also Schezo voting for Hero is pro-town)

Other town people but not as confirmed town as HW/Serela/Shadoweh:  BT, Affinity (I was debating this read, but calling Schezo and Bard's scumhunting methods "1+1+1" is true for Schezo certainly and is applicable to Bard's BT case), Dormio (doesn't sit on his hands while his vote is on me, yet constantly bringing my name up shows he has a geniune vested interest in my response to the case he made on me).   Possible additions to town list: Headcrabs, Maav, Px.

This is actually the first time you mention Bardiche at all but more important do I find the fact that you think he is scummier as Schezo for doing the same thing.

I just got a pm from capt.h discouraging our line of discourse.  Suffice it to say I about 1/2 - 2/3 the amount for each category.   

Considering your roleclaim, we could lynch someone else, go to night, have you suicide.   I'd hope your ability takes priority over everything in that case.  Do you have to claim it during the day in thread before the lynch resolves?

If we plan on doing this, I'd want to lynch Bard.

Interesting is here that you are willing to let you top scum pick fall for your second and that for something that you call yourself an potential fake claim one post later. That wouldn't be that bad on it's own but ...

  Hero was by far my strongest lead, and I was dissipointed when I read the D1 lynch scene again to realize he was not actually a serial killer
Yes, unmigated claims confirming the validity of other claims is towns way of trying to disseminate information given our limited knowledge.
Asking her about others without specifying which others exactly and why those others.... looked like a blatant attempt to distract her tunnel for even a second.  Hero was incapable of giving anything to shadoweh because he had no suspects or reads, barring weak gestures towards me and shadoweh.
Headcrabs claimed what I thought was a vig while all the while abusing his power with glee e.g. "I'm GONNA DESTROY YOU!".   Sounds like a happy townie.  Maav is mostly gut.  His votes for Hw didn't look like any Scum Push, and he talked enough that I wasn't thinking it was a votepark.

Gonna re-read Rawr and Bard.

It don't fits together with that amount of emphasis you put here into Hero being your ?strongest lead?. I also have to assume that this rereads never happened.

Mostly because this is your whole Case on Bardiche right now:
#387:

Bard the wording "about to be lynched" refered to twilight if I reached a lynch threshold.  It doubled as a meaning for the others who could suicide before day end to confirm themselves also.

This may not appear to be that relevant but even a dump Kraut like me sees that ?about to be? means before and twilight is as far as I know the time between lynch and night, in English after the lynch. Do I even need to explain why and how this ?subtle? difference is significant?
Then comes a paragraph about you Town reads, that's nice but mostly repeating and/or reporting. But the thing I'm missing here is how does it make Bardiche Scum? I mean this is supposed to be your case on him, isn't it?

It's true I haven't made a case for you Bard, I never liked you after you attacked Shadoweh and BT with bull-shit logic.  I simply haven't taken the time to pit-bull you as D1 I was busy and today Hero's flip was a downer (and I was kidnapped).

And what surprise, it really isn't you case cause you have non and you never had one at all. All you have is an dislike of his ?bull-shit logic?, needles to say that I find this plain inacceptable for a scum pick you already suspect since midday one.

I think that's all about Dan for now.

[BT]

What do you think about Not!Dan?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

@Mod: How much time is left in the day?

[Dorian White]

So since I don't intent to stay up all (game) day, and I'm mentally already asleep anyway, will I call it a night and see what I can find after some sleep. And yes I'll do my very best to get my head out of my tunnel then. Geez replacing in is quite more difficult than out.^^;

[ActionDan]

Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
\o/ Hi Schezo!

##Unvote
##Vote ActionDan
As Huh What said somewhere earlier, still expect PX to respond whenever he decides to actually reappear.
I also expect Shadoweh to actually do that thing where she posts a case on who she thinks is scum. Something that she seems highly averse to for some reason.

For someone who said that talking about trueclaims was on a need to know basis only and that it only served as role fishing (#50), you sure seem to be happy to speculate about it all you want later (#61).
#71 Why is Schezo voting Shadoweh at that point in time significant? Why not me, Hero, or PX?

Also in #71: All I can say is: wat.
Here's a thing. You yourself said that this shit was on a need to know basis, asking about it was like rolefishing.
So why are you calling someone out for telling people to stop talking about something that you yourself said we shouldn't discuss (even though you proceeded to blabber on about it anyway)?
Hypocrisy much?

And how the hell does buddying up at this point in the game make someone look townie? Why are you using this as justification for yourself buddying up to Serela? You know, you're kind of just trying to cover your own ass along with PX's here, which is suspicious as hell.

In my #50 I was under the impression we had different trueclaims, by #61 Hw had basically claimed my role (back when I thought I could suicide govern myself) "Also, I already said that I brought it up because I wanted to know if people thought it was viable to have the preferred lynch from each day kill themself to give us another lynch" so I believed Serela had this same power as well as he was the only other person that claimed to be able to suicide whilst no one else had yet hinted at this possibility.  Since I thought we all had the same role, I was happy to confirm that it was a town role and pronouce Hw and Serela as town because of it.

Schezo posted only to highlight Shadoweh's possible post restriction after Hw asked about opinions on true claims.  generally people with post restrictions are compensated by power roles so the vote seemed weaker than the average RVS vote to me.  Px went out on a limb and said Shadoweh was town and implied it was due to how she true-claimed, making me think Px had a similar ability.  I didn't put any stock in your vote for Px but it's compulsiveness didn't strike me as scummy.  As for hero, I simply had lowered expectations and didn't feel like voting a weakling.

What you quoted is not hypocrisy >_>  Shadoweh admitted to fucking up her trueclaim, and not getting her desired treestump, yet had also claimed not to know what had actually happened when she true-claimed.  She discredited me by assuming I was trying to Rolefish her when all I wanted was a better understanding of what happened.  Considering she didn't know what happened, assuming Shadoweh is town, she had no info to provide anyway.

I wasn't "buddying".  I was trying to clear people based on there roles.   

Bard,  There is more than 1 scum.  If people are dead set on thinking I'm scum and running me up, I don't get why town shouldn't be able to decide on a second lynch target that we think is scum.  That way, if you think I'm fake-claiming scum and I don't govern the lynch, it should land on scum anyway and you could lynch me the next day for being lying scum.  Otherwise I get to confirm myself without allowing scum an extra NK.  What's so hard to understand here Bard?

@BT Not unvoting hero was my mistake.  I didn't think a hammer was going to happen without warning.  I still thought Hero was scum but I wanted a concenus on if we should have actually lynched him or not.

@Dorian
Those rereads = skims, wherein I was trying to make mental notes to myself.

[PX]

Read anyone saying "Hero was scummy so his wagon is useless to analyze." Do you remember when Affinity, who was scum last game, said this about Helepolis? That because he was scummy his wagon meant nothing? There's a reason the scum was saying it. It's because Hero was such an easy town lynch that there must be scum on his wagon. You better believe scum hopped on like there was a free candy sale. I fully believe if we lynch all three of the people left as suspects (four if you're willing to headcrabs) we'll find some scum there.

Do remember that last game, THERE WERE NO SCUM ON THE HELEPOLIS WAGON. Anyways, looking through your recent posts, WHERE DID SERELA GO?! And you're saying Dan is town, but you're saying that we should go after him?

On the other hoof, I agree with Bard. Dan claimed a useless roll, and you're going to clear him based on that? When you get back, you should also do this thing where you vote for scum.

Too many cuts to care

[Bardiche]

Bard,  There is more than 1 scum.  If people are dead set on thinking I'm scum and running me up, I don't get why town shouldn't be able to decide on a second lynch target that we think is scum.  That way, if you think I'm fake-claiming scum and I don't govern the lynch, it should land on scum anyway and you could lynch me the next day for being lying scum.  Otherwise I get to confirm myself without allowing scum an extra NK.  What's so hard to understand here Bard?

You don't suffer scum to live. I fail to see how "go lynch your secondary scum target instead and I'll happily suicide myself" is Pro-Town: if you stop Town from lynching Scum by sacrificing yourself and you hold that you're Town, how exactly does this help Town?

[Affinity]

While a 1-shot vanillizer vanillizing someone D1 and NK'ing them afterwards sounds like an inefficient way to play, I don't think it is that improbable.  All they stand to lose is perhaps the chance to NK some townie role in exchange for some possible possible cred... so his role isn't really strong enough for me to discount him being scum.

Am in agreement with the Dan thing by Bardiche, BT and Dorian and would be willing to lynch/vig for the standard reasons.  Not elaborating the case on Bardiche despite given over four days and a few sizeable posts to do it is really anti-town, regardless of his role which I don't believe seems town-affirming.  Will try judging more clearly between headcrabs and Dan in their next two posts though.

Cut by Dan: We do not care about what defence you are offering yourself D1; who do you think is scum now and why?  You have not answered that question well for over half the game now.

[Dr Rawr]

So PX besides sheeping to bard, anything else to say? I mean in your #395 #404 You did accuse 4 different people of being scummy all at once, care to elaborate on that?