Welcome to PSL: Hatate's Writer's Lounge ~ Rules, info and general discussion!

[UnspokenDyslexic]

Erm, new around here, although I have read alot of other works in this forum and in FF.net.

Any tips for a rookie, cause i got a story in mind, but am so afraid of screwing it up and therefore I start procrastinating on writing.

How to start a new story and how to find motivation to keep writing are my basic questions

Btw first post, so very nervous.

[Iced Fairy]

First tip is start small.  It's much easier to get yourself to complete a 4 chapter short story then an "I don't even know how many chapters" mega series as KGB will attest.

Second tip is steal styles from real writers.  Fanfiction is fun, and I'm always glad to know people are reading, but when looking for writing techniques, look at published works you want to emulate.  Unless you'd be willing to pay $10 for the fanfiction you're reading.

How to start a new story : Get some meat together.  Your readers should know the premise behind the story, or at least think they know the premise by the end of the first section you post.  That's far more likely to get you comments, which will help you force yourself to keep writing.

How to find motivation to keep writing?  That's... harder.  Getting an audience helps.  Knowing that the end of the story is near helps.  Being really passionate about a story helps.  But I don't think any of us have figured out a fail safe way to keep a story going.

[Bardiche]

I consider a good way to keep motivated is to set the page format to 5 x 7 inches or thereabouts. It's much more motivating to see all those pages neatly lined up and feeling like I've written quite a bit already than it is to see all my words and posturing amount to one or two pages.

[Takamachi Ruroha]

I just realized Sakana spelled fiction as "ficiton" in the OP and edited it accordingly.

Anyway, I have had something on my mind lately that I think some other writers would find interesting: The use of deus ex machina in literature. The idea of a god or a king or some other higher power swooping in at the last  minute to save the day is widely regarded as a cheap way to get a happy ending, but I think there is a place in literature for it. However, this then raises the question as to how to make it not seem like it's forced. Foreshadowing? How about making it a major structural trope of the story's framework (for example, having multiple gods running around in the story as characters)? Or something else entirely?

What do you guys think? Is there a place for deus ex machina in literature or should we scrap it for good? If there is a place for it, how can we make it not seem lame? Or is the lameness part of the appeal?

[capt. h]

A deus ex machina ( /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ day-əs eks mah-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Deus Ex Machina is very common in video games. Legend of Zelda introduces new powerups to solve otherwise unsolvable puzzles once or twice a dungeon.

Generally, I think the gods should only descend to solve problems in stories about gods. I also think that solving seemlingly unsovable problems with a contrived plot element out of nowhere is a sign of bad writing.

[Tunasatomimi no Miko]

If there is a place for it, how can we make it not seem lame? Or is the lameness part of the appeal?

Well, one thought that comes to mind for me with this is "Make it so awesome it outweighs the lameness of using it at all".
In regards to Deus Ex Machina in books I have to think of stuff like Eowyn's slaying of the Wraith-King in Lord of the Rings. Pretty much out of nowhere (as far as I recall, feel free to correct me since it's been a  while) comes the "No man can slay me!" "Well, I'm a woman! *stab*" "Fffuuuuuu".
The whole scene is just so epic that you forgive it the lameness of using something noone could expect at all.

I don't think it has to be necessarily "contrived", but it certainly is important that it somehow fits into the world, and ideally involves stuff and characters that were seen earlier in the story. Introducing something completely out of the blue for the sole purpose of deus ex machina is what makes it a lame copout for me usually.

But in general? I can't remember a single action- or adventure-oriented story that did not at some point pull a minor or major deus ex machina to get characters out of a predicament or win a battle. It's part of the appeal. A completely predictable story is not fun, you need moments of unexpectedness tho keep things interesting.
When your readers go "Whoooooah! That was cool! I'd never have thought of that!" at a deus ex machina, you did it right. If they go "Errrr.... what? How does that even...", you did it wrong.
That's how I see it anyway

[Funkapurvis]

Deus Ex Machina is kinda weird, because it various from story type to story type. For instance. it's one thing for Zeus to descend from the heavens and do things in a story based in mythological Greece. Especially since this is Zeus's equivalent of foreplay and you're about to be placed into face down position. However, it's another thing when this happens in your Neuromancer fanfiction; although this really could only improve Neuromancer when you look at it objectively.  Conversely, it's one thing to stick a card into a weird edifice, punch in some runes, and get cash to come out of it in a story set in 2007 New York. It's a bit different when you have Charles "The Hammer" Martel doing the same thing before riding out to meet the Moors.  Though I suppose that's not Deus Ex Machina, but it demanded to be written.

Overall, it comes down to a couple of factors. One is how unexpected it is. When Zeus comes out of nowhere and banishes the antagonist to the cupboard for sloppy seconds, it's one thing when it literally does come out of nowhere.  But it's another thing if you're story has dropped hints here and there that maybe the big guy might just swoop down and sweep up all and sundry into whatever bordello he has in mind. I suppose it's the Chekhov's Gun deal, really; it's fair game if you leave the possibility open that X event can happen. This will lead to a fun game of hide the tip off, though, as you try to make it not obvious but also not too subtle. Here's a kinda example Imma gonna steal from an old writing textbook of mine.

Sally stood atop the parking garage, staring at the clouded night sky. The wind blew chill over the the pavement and sounds of L.A. traffic echoed between the skyscrapers.  "Oh god, I hope Zeus doesn't show up," she mutters to herself. "I don't think I could take that kind of abuse..."  Footsteps echo against the pavement; Sally gasps in surprise and whirls around! And there he was, dressed in a muted orange suit this time, beard immaculately trimmed as always. He gives a small, sad kind of smile as he approaches.

"You know," he says, "you shouldn't have said that. It's like saying Beetlejuice. So tell me, have you been swimming late-" the rest of his words were lost to a loud scream, as Sally grabs the man by the collar, lifts him over hear head, and tosses him over the edge.

Now some of you might be thinking, "What the fuck? How'd she do that?"  And on it's face, you'd be right to think it. But, let's say Sally was a professional body builder and also a fifth dan in judo? Now it suddenly seems plausible. It all comes down to how you set up your stuff. Though technically, this isn't Deus Ex Machina, but it's largely the same thing.

The other question is: How much does it screw up the story? Does it resolve everything? Does it create more problems then it starts? Why is it even there to begin with?  And for that, it's hard to come up with quick pithy examples.

[Iced Fairy]

I think most writers would agree Deus Ex Machina's best used at the beginning or middle of a tale, where it can be used to bring an unexpected element into the story in a very dramatic fashion.  However while putting it in at the end is more tricky, it's still a useful tool to keep around.

I'm not sure if a foreshadowed event counts, but if so a good amount of foreshadow can turn Deus Ex into a huge payoff.  For example Issola when the main character gets, via very convoluted means, the item he needs to survive the fight he's in (Godslayer) it doesn't seem terrible, because the author has been foreshadowing this event for at least eight books.  The moment he puts it all together you go "Oh...."  It turns into a huge payoff for the reader.

If your story is emphasizing how powerless the main character is, or how randomly kind and cruel the universe can be, then having an ending completely unrelated to the main characters actions is perfectly fitting.  It's the perfect capstone.

Monty Python and the Holy Grail similarly has a great Deus Ex.  When your comedy is about semi random slapstick jokes you can get away with it.  Everything can be forgiven if it's funny.

And lastly Deus Ex can work if it turns out to be not that contrived after all.  No one expects the police to kick in the door during your hero's final confrontation with the time traveling Sorcerer, but you know, maybe the neighbors called 911 when you started shooting his zombie minions.  Or to use a real example, in one of the Birds of Prey books, Black Canary got herself in a very tough situation that she couldn't get out of.  So Oracle called in Superman who took all of three panels to KO the guy.  Because they can do that, even though the genre conventions lead the reader to forget that.

So yeah, an important tool, but one that needs to be used deliberately.

[Anathe]

~*~bitching about other sites~*~

has anyone set up work skins for AO3 yet? I've configured one to support a variety of fonts and colours (ok not really there're like... 4 calls), but it's been hell trying to get the fucking thing to work. It works for all of one line in one chapter and then a day later the system decides to shit itself and go OOPS DON'T RECOGNISE IT HURP DERP despite the skin already being loaded for the work in particular.

what i'm trying to say is fucking fanfiction sites

[Takamachi Ruroha]

Nope, I've never even tried to play around with the skin function yet, sorry.

[Takamachi Ruroha]

I feel like a double post tonight!

All right, so, I found this a few nights ago. http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/

It's an encyclopaedia of Shinto. It is super useful. (Almost too useful, as Iced put it to me.) I will post it here that it may be a good online resource for fic research.

Apart from obvious answers like TouhouWiki and Wikipedia, what other online resources do you folks use to do your research?

[Iced Fairy]

Apart from obvious answers like TouhouWiki and Wikipedia, what other online resources do you folks use to do your research?

Hm...  I can't really think of online sites.  I mean beyond standard google abuse that is.

I will state that I draw a lot from nature and non ZUN demonology for my characterizations.  For magicians I use a lot of MAGE, for the demons I abuse western demonology.  Crow and wolf tengu get societal quirks from their brethren, though I always try to make sure the human side also stays prominent.  Giving yourself an area to search really helps in those matters.

As an aside I find myself using Lone Wolf and Cub again for pseudo-historical reference.  The little bits about face and fealty can be useful when working with the older more traditional characters.  Though as youkai most of them break those taboos.