Author Topic: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13  (Read 35931 times)

Ghaleon

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Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« on: August 28, 2011, 08:39:35 AM »
Just curious what people think of it, so, give us your opinions on it!
Mine are:
Overall: Pleased, haven't checked spellcard practice yet, but that is a portion of how I'm impressed with it. Its GFW-esque system is also a bonus.

Pros:
 Much better than UFO (IMO), requires much less memorization,
Music lineup is average...But it is starting to take a new direction slightly IMO, which I consider a good thing not because Zun's style is bad per say, but because he's new with this newer slightly different style, so I'm assuming it'll improve as he gets more experience, making average improve to better than average in future games.
I think the compositions of the music have better potential for re-arrangements than their base songs, which could result in them becomming much better over time.
I'm not a scoring fan, but I do think this game has the best scoring mechanic in Touhou history (interested in what other scoring fans like sapz and aisha think...)
Difficulty is wonderful, normal (and I assume easy, will try later) seems easier than average.. Hard seems harder than all but ufo/SA..Haven't tried lunatic yet, I imagine it will be like hard in the grand scheme of things, or harder, I'm almost sure it'll be harderererer if you go for score.

cons:
-Extend count seems small... I prefer the danmaku to be harder, and the extends to be generous. This makes a game more challenging without making non-pros unable to enjoy it as much.

-Character lineup didn't impress me. It's like the whole cast is as boring as Murasa IMO (I think she's boring anyway). The final boss looks great though, but I'm not a fan of the ears (I generally hate animal-characters...I don't even know if she is, but those ears...say she is). The extra boss though looks flat out ridiculous IMO, Zombie-reimu has been dethroned! lol >=p..I know she's popular already though, don't flame me *hides*.

-While I like a new direction for music that wasn't a bad example, none of the songs really made me go YEAAAHHH. I think Zombie-girl's themesong could REALLY own with some good metal remixes though.

-Danmaku is (like UFO) not pretty. It's not ugly, it's not boring, but it's not pretty. If you don't like STGs, you wont enjoy watching someone play the game just from the patterns and such of the danmaku. UFO had this too, as did SA to a lesser extent (some were pretty). But yeah, kinda bummed out that Zun didn't fix his recently developed habit.

-The extra boss, to make matters worse, is actually one of the least fun IMO. It's like she has no challenge at all minus confusion of her bullets' hitboxes. When I got to her first spellcard for the first time I thought "well this isn't cool"...got to her 2nd... same deal, 3rd, same deal, 4th (that's the first frog one right? I forget), oh ano..oh..yah!..the first fun spellcard IMO. But yeah, none of them really struck me as original, pretty, or fun =(.

I'm a critic, pay no mind that I have as many (or is it more) cons to pros. zun did a good job IMO, ESPECIALLY since he released so much shit this year to boot. With the new engine change too! Touhou looks like it'll be as exciting in years to come as it has before IMO... I'm just worried about his pretty danmaku thing. That was unfortunately one of Touhou's defining things.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 08:00:43 PM »
Reviews huh? Well, I suppose I can say a few words about the game. I was thinking about making a thread like this anyway, just to ask how people felt about the game.

My first impressions with the trial was somewhat positive. Stage 1 was pretty damn bad. It felt like it took forever to do absolutely nothing and finished it off with a boss that could do absolutely nothing like usual. There was just something about Nazrin and Yamame that made them feel like a lot better bosses than Yuyuko. Maybe perhabs because they could actually throw me off if I wasn't paying attention. Stage 2 and 3 however greatly made up for that. That is to say, not the stages - they sucked alright - but the bosses had some neat attacks that had a bit of challenge to them - nothing extreme but pretty decent anyway.

What I was hoping for here was ZUN treating this like SA and pretty much any other of his games. Stage 4, 5 and 6 being the real meat of the game providing actual difficulty (UFO excepted, that game actually had gameplay in the first three stages). This didn't happen. Instead the difficulty pretty much capped on Yoshika and never at all increased from there. Right after you put the boot to that zombie girls face you enter the next stage that is way too easy for its own good. Stage 4. SA stage 4, UFO Stage 4 - fuck those things. Players are too retarded to dodge so we better dumb things down. I suppose that was ZUN's trail of thought when he made the stage. Just like the first three stages, this is insanely trivial. The only potentially challenging part of the stage can be easily passed by hugging a wall.

This is not going to be a full fledged rant about each individual stage or some shit like that though. Its not really necessary since basically all the stages can be summed up like this. They are too easy. Even at Lunatic difficulty there is nothing difficult about them. Unlike SA and UFO and to a certain extent MoF that had a bit of challenge in its stage design.

However, its not the stage design its all about is it? No. Its about the bosses. It has always been. Are the bosses notable challenges then? Well, surprise! They aren't! They are piss easy. All of them. Their spells, with a few exceptions, are trash and their non-spells are generally even worse. Seiga seriously need some blast processing, Futo seems to be the second coming of Reisen and Miko has only one threatening spellcard. Which isn't her final which is incredibly lame.

Overall the danmaku, save for a few individual cards and non-spells here and there, is completely useless. Which I suppose is intended since you won't be playing any of it anyway if you are going to score thanks to a completely retarded score system. I never liked the SA score system but that's not because it sucks. That's just because it doesn't work like I want it to. I prefer my score systems to be about avoiding death, capping as many cards as possible and grapping points. I like stuff basic. But even so, I can at least appreciate a replay of stuff like SA because it looks impressive, requires a lot of advanced strategy and memorization to pull off. TD however... nope. None of that. Its a thoroughly retarded concept imo. Some people might like it, but I prefer to have to dodge to score points. Just sayin'.

The graphics and gameplay mechanics, except for trance, are good though. But that's par for the course. That's the bare minimum. It doesn't really improve upon its prequels, although it makes my laptop lag thanks to some crappy 3D backgrounds. Nice.

The music. There is some good songs. I like Kyouko's theme, Rigid Paradise, Seiga's theme, Miko's theme and Mamizou's theme. The music is different this time around but i generally like what has been done with it. Stuff like Futo's music however sounds like ZUN gathered the ten most boring people in all of Japan and used their anecdotes about their personal lives as inspiration for the composition. Other than that though, its a pretty good soundtrack imo.

The girls. The most important part. I like their design. Kyouko is cute, Yoshika looks like a god forsaken retard but its appropriate. I like how she falls over in the Stage 4 boss battle unable to get up on her own. Its a cute touch. Seiga is pretty attractive.Tojiko is pretty forgetable. Futo reminds me of Momizi which is a good thing and Miko is also pretty good looking. Of course, none of these can touch upon Mamizou who is just outright hot. I guess its the glasses that does the trick. That was their looks. Now onto a less important aspect about a woman. Their personality.
 :trollface:

I find the characters in this game to be reasonably interesting. Still, I don't know them very well. Their dialogue is all in japanese and since my knowledge of that language is extremely limited I cannot read it. I have read translated bios on the wiki however and I like what i've read so far. This doesn't come as a surprise though. ZUN's writing skills has seen vast improvement from the throw-away garbage of everything before SA.

----------------------------------

In conclusion, the game isn't very good imo. The music, graphics and characters are nice enough but that can simply not save the game when the gameplay is so lacking. The game is boring and its far too easy even on the highest difficulty setting. Its below average at best.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 10:55:20 PM by Zengeku »

MTSranger

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 09:29:05 PM »
The game is easy enough that I may actually go 1cc lunatic (I can't for SA/UFO), if I can just stop dying to people like Kyouko.
Despite you guys complaining that it's super easy, I find lunatic hard, although easier than SA and UFO (2 games I have bad memories of).
Stage 4 is, to my relief, not very threatening compared to almost any other game.

The trial version struck me as very error intolerant, with very few extends.
Thankfully extends are easier to get now.

Good:
- No more stupid UFOs to collect
- Difficulty is fine, normal is a bit easy though
- The extra boss is somewhat fun to play with
- I like Miko's cards

Bad:
- Not impressed with Kyouko's and Yoshika's theme
- ^ to a lesser extent, Yuyuko, Stage 2, Seiga
- Danmaku for Kyouko and Yoshika looks meh

Formless God

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 10:06:12 PM »
Pros:
- Reasonable difficulty. A balls to walls hard STG is not necessarily a good STG.
- Much more liberty in moving around, I don't have to constantly plant myself at the bottom anymore.
- Danmaku design. Not pretty, but fun. Like, Dodonpachi fun.
- Even with SP this didn't turn into another IN. A pleasant surprise.
- Game runs smooth as silk.
- I tend to overrate new music buuuuuut, it's very good.
- The new designs are good. Tojiko's face expression is among the best ZUN's ever done.
- Shattered hopes, bones, etc. Feels satisfying man.

Cons:
- Bit too easy to memorize, so stages just feel like fillers after a while.
- Trance makes most stages "fixed", except for the resource fairies in S3 and the marches in S6.
- May develop bad habits such as flailing around too much or trying to shotgun Eirin's first attack.

They are developed for retards. Even at Lunatic difficulty there is nothing difficult about them.
Whoa calm the fuck down now, you're turning full elitist.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2011, 10:30:36 PM »
Yay, I was starting to think the topic was a bust.

I personally don't find the game particularly easy past normal at all, honestly IMO I find hard to be harder than every Touou game but SA and UFO...And it's not because I haven't memorized it yet because fact is, not only is memorization not as important for this game, but it's actually fairly easy to memorize too.

I am surprised people are mentioning track names already, I personally don't know the names of any of the tracks, but the only mentionable ones I can think of are the tracks for stage 4 (or was it 5? one of them..I think 4 more though), stage 3 boss, and stage 6 boss. The rest kinda bore me.
Stage 2 boss is actually my least fave. she just seems very cheap. I mean sometimes I dodge the danmaku without any issues, but you get no warning about when she'll refresh her border thing so some bullet I dodged and suddenly ignore, suddenly turns around and hits my back sometimes.

I can avoid this safely by exaggerating my movement and taking much longer than I should for the spellcard, but that isn't as fun imo.

The appearence of the girls is quite probably the least important feature IMO, mostly because Zun's own art is so damn bad that I can't even judge a character's appearence until after some fanart is done. Sakuya is a great example of a character who looks like WTF by Zun, but is actually pretty comely most of the time.

I hate furry characters, and animal ears/tails/whatever...But Toyo no miko is without a doubt, the best looking drawning I've seen Zun do in a game IMO (damn the animal ears), she has a great BGM too to boot. I really see her being one of my top 10 (5 if you count triple/double ties as 1 instead of 3/2) soon, but I'll have to read the game first, as long as she doesn't have Sanae's personality, I'm sure I'll love her.

As for Zengeku, I wont criticize your opinion, but Formless, Zengeku...I've noticed this behaviour from him for awhile now, he's like...Trying to take Banamatic's spot or something, the glen beck of MoTK or something >=P. Again, I'll respect his opinions, I just don't like the over sensationalist way he presents them. sorry Zen, I don't mean to insult, I actually don't mean to disrespect you, your opinions are valid, but I just think you exaggerate them too much, I'm glad you replied overall though. I wasn't sure if people thought the game was easy past normal, but apparently some do think it is. But are you sure it just doesn't seem easy compared to UFO? UFO is... a thing.

As for scoring, Zen, you are like me, I don't like scoring either, personally. I think skillful dodging should be all that matters for a score. But the fact is most STGs, if not all, do not do this at ALL. the reason why I think the scoring mechanic is the best, is because it requires the least memorization, and the most skill. Killing stuff asap, going near the top (danger) to grab souls, etc isn't always easy. But there is no BS crap like in MoF where you have to know when to NOT kill stuff so that you don't lose faith for 10 seconds straight. Nor do you have to know what color ufos come in advance to maximize them like in UFO, etc. That's why I think it's the best.

I'm very interested what scoring-fans think of the scoring, Zen's opinion matters too, but his reasonings for disliking it are pretty much reasons for disliking scoring in STGs in general IMO, so I really doubt he's a scoring fan.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2011, 10:42:49 PM »
might as well

Pros:
The music is pretty nice chance of style for Zun. It kinda reminds me of SA style of music. I think UFO had a better soundtrack though
A fucking awesome Stage 2,3 and 4 boss and stage. Fun and not too hard or too easy.
The bosses have nice designs
Graphics looks nice and the controls are well polished.
The danmaku in some parts are great and well designed.
Awesome Extra Boss

Cons:
Too fucking easy. My god I beat this on Lunatic in like 4 days while it took me like months for the others. Zun I know you're trying to make things easier for new players but my god a retarded person could beat this on Hard in like 3 hours or less.
Some very very bland danmaku(hint all of Miko attacks)
Scoring system is retarded by Touhou standards.
Miko as a boss. She is by far the most blandest boss fight in the entire series. All of her attacks are shit that any retard could make in like 5 mins. They're un creattive and just dull.  Her last attack is the biggest insult. Seriously what the fuck happen here Zun

Overall kinda disapointed. Its a huge huge step down from UFO which I think is his best game. Everything just feels dumbed down and just underwhelming. The biggest problem with the game is the difficulty. After Stage 3 the game gets slowly easier and dull. 

Maybe 14 will be better i dunno


Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2011, 10:54:44 PM »
Whoa calm the fuck down now, you're turning full elitist.

I didn't mean it literally. What I meant was that the stages feel like they don't take the player seriously at all. Its competition considered. If there are people having trouble with the TD stages, I didn't mean to insult you, I'm just holding the stages up to the standards set by UFO and SA that had a lot more difficult stages than this game. Stages that I didn't manage to find a fixed path through by seeing them two or three times. There aren't enough random elements to them.

But I guess it can be misunderstood so I'll just go edit my review.

Trying to take Banamatic's spot or something, the glen beck of MoTK or something >=P.
No. He doesn't like Touhou. I do. That's a very important difference.

Quote
But are you sure it just doesn't seem easy compared to UFO? UFO is... a thing.

This thing is almost as easy as PCB if you ask me. Exactly how it measures up to PCB and IN, I can't really say though. I don't really see a difference.

Quote
I'm very interested what scoring-fans think of the scoring, Zen's opinion matters too, but his reasonings for disliking it are pretty much reasons for disliking scoring in STGs in general IMO, so I really doubt he's a scoring fan.

I actually enjoy a bit of scoring now and then. The thing is, I don't really have time to memorize all that much so I appreciate when scoring like in MoF. Shmups like DOJ and Ketsui does require a lot beyond standard survival to score though. And they heavily punish bombing and dying. That's how I like it.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2011, 11:02:17 PM »
To be honest the thing that really just annoys the hell out of me(more so than the lol easy difficulty)

Is that godawful final boss

fuck I can't get over how underwhelming that was goddamnit Zun. Byakruen was a fun and beautiful boss fight. What the hell happen?

At least she has a good design and theme.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2011, 11:20:17 PM »
Yeah the final boss DOES seem rather easy doesn't she? I haven't seen her yet on hard or lunatic, but on normal she's easier than the stage 3, 4 and 5 bosses imo.
 I tried to 1cc hard twice now and failed pretty bad, only got to stage 5. I'm not a braindead loser either. Hell, people qq'd when 1cc'd my first touhou game so early (in 1 or 2 days IIRC, and that was with little shmup experience). Unless the final boss is still a joke (moreso than all the other bosses on hard/lunatic) I still just don't see how she's THAT easy (and certainly not the game as a whole).

But then again, I don't have a vsync patch, and claim placebo if you will, but I do have some input lag (though I admit not much), just like every other game, maybe that's my problem, dunno.

I think the extra boss is worse though. her danmaku is unoriginal and boring like the final boss', only is more challenging by stupid bullet shape hitboxes+completely randomly changing trajectories alone. Random altering trajectories is fine for a spellcard or two IMO, but when the whole stage relies on it alone completely...bleh. There was one time I croaked to Extra Nue's first spellard..Because one of the bullets surprised me by coming at me straight up from below, wtf is that? I mean it's one thing if the spellcard does it regularly and you accommodate for it, but it's another story when it normally doesn't happen.

This whole post sounds like a bash, I'm still pleased overall though, =p.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2011, 11:30:02 PM »
There was one time I croaked to Extra Nue's first spellard..Because one of the bullets surprised me by coming at me straight up from below, wtf is that? I mean it's one thing if the spellcard does it regularly and you accommodate for it, but it's another story when it normally doesn't happen.

Actually, that spellcard provided me with a fair bit of trouble to time out. For just those reasons. I think the bullets randomly change trajectories pretty regularly in the card but you normally don't get to see it happen too much when simply capturing it.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2011, 11:50:06 PM »
The Extra boss patterns aren't very orginial I admit but I found the boss fight really fun.

Though Nue will always be the best Extra boss to me

Tengukami

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 12:00:11 AM »
As for Zengeku, I wont criticize your opinion, but Formless, Zengeku...I've noticed this behaviour from him for awhile now, he's like...Trying to take Banamatic's spot or something, the glen beck of MoTK or something >=P. Again, I'll respect his opinions, I just don't like the over sensationalist way he presents them. sorry Zen, I don't mean to insult, I actually don't mean to disrespect you, your opinions are valid, but I just think you exaggerate them too much, I'm glad you replied overall though.

No. He doesn't like Touhou. I do. That's a very important difference. ... Shmups like DOJ and Ketsui does require a lot beyond standard survival to score though. And they heavily punish bombing and dying. That's how I like it.

Yeah, but this isn't the first time you're hearing what Ghaleon is saying, is it? And I can also attest that the people who do directly say something to you are the tip of the iceberg; there's been feedback about posts you've made in the past about the game or the playing skills of others. I think if you keep hearing different people offer this constructive criticism about the way you express yourself, it might be time to rethink things.

I mean, for example: for a while there you had "ZUN, your scoring system is lame" as your personal text. This isn't an outright violation of site guidelines or anything, and taken by itself it's no big deal. But it's kinda trolly, and is part of a general pattern that you might want to reconsider.

Doing all this, not to mention the repeated comparisons between Touhou and Cave, doesn't make things magically OK just because you say, "But I like Touhou!" That's great that you do, and everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions. I think overall you do post in good faith. I don't mean to say anything of this in a scolding manner or whatever, but I do think Ghaleon - among others - has a point.

All I'm saying is, I dunno, maybe consider dialing it back a little? Or at least rethink the presentation of your opinions, as they do matter, too.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Derpface

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 12:16:38 AM »
Yay Review Time!

I like Touhou 13 myself because of its suited difficulty. Having played UFO myself, this game is very pleasing!

In my opinion...

Pros:
  • Toned down difficulty for people that are not very familiar with STG. This one can serve as a practice warm-up for other Touhous!
  • Soundtrack! Likewise, ZUN does great job with moosics. The music in Th13 Ten Desires grows slowly into you. You'll start getting hypnotized by music after a while.
  • 4 different players. No new thing but it's fun to try different things once in a while.
  • Gimmicky bosses. Mostly seiga with Yoshika slave and Miko using Futo and Soga (Soga was it?)
  • Trance mode. Alternative to empty bombs --- Last resorts for keeping your lives in stock!
  • Character designs! Improved art style and well-thought background stories.
  • Spell practice, lovely addition.

Cons:
  • Spirits. It's no fun to run up to them to collect them :( They get stuck in the middle of all that rotating, slowly moving danmaku... OH NOES IT DISAPPEARED
  • Low resource stock, self explanatory
  • CURVY LASERS (wait this isn't even enough to make a cons)
  • Not many mistakes allowed D: And also stages feel a bit long and dull after playing them for a while.
  • MARISA'S LASERS. Y U NO PIERCE AND APPEAR INSTANTLY ON THE SCREEN? Also I don't like your placements :(

Overall, I'd say this Touhou isn't as attractive to hardcore older players. But see, for someone like me this is treasure golden-gem (wait whut is that even supposed to mean)
The only reason I could defeat Byakuren was because of Sanae B's OP'd bombs lol.

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 12:49:35 AM »
Review~! Unya~?

Okay, so, IMO, Ten Desires is basically IN with EXTREME focus on memorization, chaining, and shotgunning. This is a good thing, sort of, since I like my Normal Modes balanced and laid-back... sort of.

Down to specifics, then:

Pros:
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Most of the music in the soundtrack, actually.
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Beautiful BGs
* BASS 2 BASS DESIRE DRIVE
* Cute girl designs. Especially Seiga, Tojiko, Futo and Miko. ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY Seiga. ESPECIALLY x4 Mamizou.
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Easy and Normal fairly laid back, while being balanced by challenging Hard and Lunatic
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Spell Practice and Overdrive.
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Some of the patterns really stuck to me. See: Futo's final.
* I haven't mentioned DESIRE DRIVE yet, have I? Wha-- I have?! Well, I'll say it again, so deal with it. DESIRE. DRIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

Cons:
* Futo's theme was... just plain goofy. I don't know.
* OH GOD THE LAG ;3;
* Most of the bullet patterns were horribly bland. Most.
* Scarce lives. Just because the patterns are bland doesn't mean I don't accidentally derp and forget to deathbomb/trance, and when I derp, well... yeah.
* Laserisa sucks now. She does happen to score high, though.
* Sanae's attack power is LOL EWW, but the spread is cool.
* Reimu's homing is... oh Suwako, no. MoF's homing algorithms were perfect, WTF, ZUN?


teets mi hao 2 2hu teets mi teets mi hao 2 2hu

Ghaleon

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 12:54:58 AM »
I don't know song names so I tried desire drive.. stage 4's track. That one is all right, not great imo though. Turns out stage 5's theme is the one I adore >=P.

Alice★f

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2011, 12:56:13 AM »
Keeping this short and simple:

Touhou 13 is an excellent addition to the Touhou lineup of shmups developed by Zun. It's simple learning curve, yet high difficulty, give this game high replay value and a retro arcade feel for those that enjoy fast-paced games.

Ten Desires delivers the goods, but sadly fails to impress on some parts.

The music is excellent, and it is evident that Mr. Ota has been experimenting with various genres of music; from the techno versions of musical themes while activating Trance mode, to the heavy bass of the stage portion of Stage 6. Zun has also preserved most of his previous techniques, namely the Zunpet, which is a synthesized instruments resembling that of trumpets. In Ten Desires, while there is more diversity in Zun's compositions throughout the game, the music doesn't start to pick up until the second half of the game. Prior to Stage 4, most themes are left unmemorable, because they feel too resemblant of songs from previous installations of Touhou. Stage 4's stage theme is fast-paced, matches the rhythm of the game, and it energizes the player. The difficulty also begins to pick up during this stage, and the fast bpm and louder bass make it a fairly intense stage that energizes the player.

Ten Desires contains many new and already-existing characters in the franchise. The player can choose from Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, or Youmu, all of which were characters released in earlier Touhou games, to play as in 10D. Yuyuko returns in Stage 1, but from that point on, all introduced characters are new to the series, with
Spoiler:
Houjuu Nue being the later exception in the Extra Stage
. Design-wise, it is difficult to immediately determine whether the characters are memorable or not based on their personality, one reason being because there is not an English translation patch for 10D available at this moment (Translations for individual conversations are posted in raw at touhouwiki.net) and because Zun is also known for leaving much of the characters' personailities to the fandom's imagination.

Touhou 13 also features refined artwork and higher quality portraits of characters than previous releases of the game. When I first played through the game, most of the new characters struck me as plain and boring. There were exceptions however, such as Mamizou and Yoshika, the former being a Tanuki and the latter a Jiang-Shi, respectively. Seiga just stood out to me as another fairy, the one that didn't make it to Fairy Wars, and Toyosatomimi no Miko just didn't live up to my expectations as a Stage 6 boss, design-wise, at least. Most characters tend to grow on the players after some time, however, so I wouldn't be surprised if they become more popular, especially after the English patch is released. Zun's artwork overall has shown more traits of the "cute and mo?" anime style, and his anatomy is noticeably improving with each release. (Hands!)

Ten Desires, like most other Touhou releases, has a game mechanic that sets it apart from the other games. In 10D, the player has a Trance meter at the bottom represented by a Skull and as it fills up, three ghost souls will appear. When the meter is full, the player presses the C button to activate Trance, which is a brief period where the game theme changes and the player can run around the screen, collecting points and collectibles without taking damage. It is a period of invincibility where the player can chance to gain many points, score on bombs and lives. Lives, also known as "Extends," are obtained by collecting red life fragments. Bombs are earned by collecting green fragments. While in Trance mode, the value of these collectibles are multiplied by two, so the player can earn lives more quickly. This game mechanic allows the player to decide when Trance should be used, whether to collect points or to escape a difficult situation.

Spell cards function the same in Ten Desires than any other Windows Touhou game: The player must eliminate all of the card's health without losing a life, bombing, and in the case, using Trance, in order to capture the spell card. Touhou 13 also features Spell Practice, a feature that was also in Touhou 8, Imperishable Night. In this mode, the player can practice individual spell cards to sharpen their skills immediately. In some cases, when a spell card is captured on all four difficulties,
Spoiler:
overdrive mode will be unlocked for that card, which is even more difficult than the Lunatic version.

Spell patterns were for the most part, unimpressive. Some of them had clever gimmicks such as Yoshika's spell cards, which heal her if the player does not collect the souls in time, but some of them just felt like boring repeats of patterns shown in earlier games, such as Toyosatomimi's final spell card. The Extra stage felt very much like Subterranean Animism's Extra stage at times, both in the stage portion and the boss portion, especially  Mamizou's nonspells. Personally, most of these cards just felt like they were missing the intensity and the complexity of previous spell cards, and it suddenly felt like I was playing an earlier release of Touhou except with updated sprites and graphics.

Touhou 13 is your typical Touhou release, but with a few added bells and whistles. It offers four characters to choose from, and the added Spell Practice is a very special feature that was anticipated by many players. It offers a new game mechanic that allow players to score many points in a short amount of time, and also save themselves in a situation where they are out of bombs. The spell patterns are the usual what you would expect from a Touhou game, but don't expect anything too flashy. Music sticks out especially well in this release, and Zun's compositions do not fail to impress, but little can be said about the first three stages. Ten Desires is an excellent title to pick up for the returning Touhou shmup player, but it should not be recommended as a first title for someone who is barely beginning to get started with the series.

(Short and Simple, yeah right. This is a quick review, and I know I left out a lot of things, but please bear with me. I only wrote this for this thread. I'll make a better and more complete review later)

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2011, 03:00:44 AM »
Right a review of TD

Ten Desires was the first Touhou game I actually waited for the release and tracked the release news of, due to coming into Touhou only this year. I was definitely excited for its release, and really hoped there would be a difficulty buff for the final three stages, as the first three in the demo were a joke for normal mode. I would say that some parts of the game impressed me, but on overall I was disappointed.

I would say I quite like the cast of Ten Desires, which like most of the Touhou games resulted in me especially liking a few characters that stood out (UFO is an exception, I liked all equally, but none stood out enough). I'd say my favourite character from TD is Seiga, followed by Miko. The backstory is a lot more fleshed out now, which does help, even if it makes them the first real "evil" characters in Touhou (Utsuho is stupid, she doesn't count). It was really nice to see Youmu again, but I find her shot type extremely difficult to use. I'd really like to see previous stage 5 bosses like Reisen, Shou and Orin (especially) to show up though. Sanae has a good shot type, but I never really liked her that much as a character. One of the better things about the game would be the balanced shot types, unlike SA and to an extent MoF.

The gameplay is interesting, but quite pissing at times due to my perfectionist for the first 3 stages. The difficulty however, is unfortunately still as low as ever on normal, maybe made up for due to less extends, but still really low. My biggest complaint however would be the bullet patterns. I really like patterns such as Mountain of Faith and Wind God Hidden in Tree leaves, which look amazing visually. Ten Desires however is quite short of those. In particular Futo's final attack seems like a half-assed attempt to pull of one, and I find the card extremely boring. Seiga's patterns are quite meh on normal mode, and Futo's are terrible in my opinion, except her first spellcard. For Miko, Armillary sphere and Guse Kannon are nice, and so is the final nonspell, but her first three nonspells are boring. Ranks of Twelve Levels and Laser of Seventeen Articles particularly got me since they looked like terrible versions of Earth Light Ray and Shou's first card, and the rainbow is kinda ugly this time. Taoist of the land of the Rising Sun is boring and stupid, while Royal Clan's Chaotic Dance has a nice concept but is boring and easy. Miko's final card is rather boring too, but it's the only one I can't captured for the main game on normal. I think the main problem is the game's addiction to those big circle bullets, which are difficult to create nice patterns with while the small bullets didn't do anything spectacular. The extra stage boss' danmaku is nice though.

The graphics of the game are quite good. Um yeah that's about it.

As for the music, I really liked Seiga's and Mamizou's theme. For me the music in general sorta turned into a more background ambience thing than a main aspect in this game. Miko's theme is kinda boring at the beginning, but it builds up later and is one of the better themes in the game. Unfortunately it still doesn't shine when compared to the other stage 6 boss themes. Rigid paradise, the extra theme and the stage 5 theme are nice too. I don't really see the appeal in stage 4, stage 6 and Futo's theme though.

That is all.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2011, 03:43:29 AM »
So, TD.

Sigh.

The game is... Easy. Very easy. Now, this is fine on easy mode, since that is supposed to be the easiest difficulty of the game, I can never complain that it's too easy. So that's fine. Normal and Hard mode I won't complain about either, since I don't play those difficulties and frankly don't care what their difficulty is at all. Lunatic however, is too easy. This is the absolute hardest difficulty of a bullet hell shmup, with games like SA and UFO as it's precedent... And this is what we get? Mediocre danmaku that's easy as piss to dodge, underwhelming stage five and six bosses that are comparable to most Touhou game's stage three and four bosses, and gameplay mechanics that encourage dodging nothing. Trance mode makes you invincible and multiplies the value of all point items and even lives and bombs. There is absolutely no risk associated with it, and not using it means you've lost out on score, lives and more Trances since you can't go over 600 spirit value counter thing stuff whatever it is no matter how much you save your trances. This is not even like PCB's supernatural borders, which I also don't like, but at least you're not doing absolutely nothing while in one. You certainly don't stop dodging just because you're invulnerable for one hit. I mean, fuck, there's practically nothing you can do while Trancing! You sit on top of bosses or sit at the top of the screen and speedkill stuff with absolutely no risk attached to it since you're completely invulnerable for the duration of the Trance. How boring is that? Shit, it's not even pretty to look at. It's just ten seconds of falling asleep, which is bad enough when the game is already easy and boring anyway.

ZUN's logic was probably to give less resources but make the game a bit easier to compensate. So what does this mean? It means the good players are going to get bored after the first few playthroughs since everything is below their level and once some base level of memorization kicks in the game is practically trivialized. But it also makes the game less inviting for beginners since there is less margin for error. You can't recover from random screw-ups because you have less resources to work with. Plus the game isn't giving you any chances to test yourself on harder or more challenging patterns that you'd be more willing to try and get better at if you had the resources to do so. Instread you get to stress about how you have less than three lives for the entire duration of the game and could screw up at any moment on any random pattern, even if it is slightly easier than normal. Can't really speak for players inbetween beginner and above average, could lean either way. Might be good that things are easier because they're comfortable with their precise movements but have difficulty managing fast or large amounts bullets... Or they could find it harder because they can read bullets fine but have difficulty moving exactly where they want to every time, so they could have random screw-ups at any given moment and would prefer having a larger resource cushion and don't mind more difficult bullet patterns. But so far it looks like most people just find the game really easy.

Scoring is fucking stupid. Memorize some a few choice enemy placements, then spend all your time being invulnerable while you Trance and bomb on top of the bosses, completely skipping all the [easy!] dodging the game has to offer. The entirety of the last boss fight is spent invulnerable as you waste all your resources sitting on top of the boss and getting millions (billions even) of points for doing pretty much nothing. Dodging bullets? Silly you, you could've spent that time invulnerable on top of the boss getting over a hundred times the points. How exciting is that.

Spell practice can die. If anything, the whole game needs an Overdrive difficulty instead of just eight spell cards.

Music is alright, I suppose. I spend all my time listening to the music during the game cause I'm sure as hell not doing anything else that requires any thought at the time, so you'd think I'd have a more in depth opinion of it, but I guess since I don't I'd call it "meh" overall. Stage 3 and 4 themes tickle me sometimes.

Characters aren't that grand overall. Seiga is kinda interesting and is probably my favourite from the game. Interestingly enough, Yoshika would probably be my next favourite, convenient that it lines up like that.

I couldn't care less about the story or lore so no comments on that. Actually now that I think of it, I don't even know the story of UFO, heh.

I don't like TD. Sits comfortably below PCB and IN on my "Touhou games arranged in order of how much I like them" list, and I don't play either of those.


stuff

This should be a PM.

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2011, 03:54:09 AM »
I'll take a crack at this, in a relatively condensed manner.

I think the PCs have weaker shot types than usual, starting out. Youmu's slash is a neat little gimmick, and especially good for getting spirits, but not so great against bosses. I suppose the counterbalance to this is that the danmaku isn't very difficult. The overall effect would be kind of weak for me without the chaining aspect.

Full disclosure: I love chaining. I'm a fan of the eXceed series because of it. Ten Desires and eXceed share two elements in common, the first being the chaining. It's common to a lot of games; eXceed3rd uses autocollect, though, while 10D doesn't. I was personally relieved that collection was different than UFO's - you only need to get near the things, not physical touch them. Nor were they careening through moving landmines of danmaku. The payoff is mixed, though, as bombs are plentiful, but lives, not so much. The Trance meter seems to fill up quickly, though, which is the other thing 10D and eXceed3rd have in common (among other games). I like using Trance, and usually save it for more stubborn situations with bosses. The psychological effect of this is I forget to bomb. 

The bosses are a mixed bag. The trial version promised pretty interesting and daring ideas for boss designs, but seeing Seiga and Tojiko had me worried. Then things get great again, until the Extra boss appears. I'm sorry, but the design of this boss looks really haphazard. But in any event, as has been mentioned before, the danmaku against any of them isn't particular hard. And it's pretty enough, but I don't recall any spellscards that made me think "Wow!"

The story, on the other hand, I really enjoyed. I like it best when ZUN draws from ancient history as well as mythology. And he's connecting again to other games in the series, building up interpersonal relationships between older characters and new.

Finally, I do enjoy the music. Yoshika's theme still earworms me.

Overall, I think 10D is a solid game in the series. The art, music and story make the game attractive, while the chaining and Trance make it fun. It's not so strong on danmaku, though, which is a shame. If it had the kind of spellcards that I've enjoyed in Imperishable Night and Mountain of Faith, I think it'd be one of my favorites. This is casual Touhou, pretty much. It's fun and attractive, but you won't be sweating bullets necessarily.

Also:

This should be a PM.

It is unrelated to the OP, but I don't think this is out of line to post in-thread. Like I said, I'm not reprimanding him; it's just friendly advice. I think Zengeku's a good poster.

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2011, 09:19:43 AM »
I was thinking about making a thread like this anyway,

"Anyone else feeling the Ten Desires meh?"  :V

While I'm here I guess I can give some thoughts.

So yeah, I'm not overly exited about this game.

The game is stupid easy, even on the freaking highest difficulty. Touhou is already being ridiculed for being too easy despite fans screaming "TOHOE HARDAST GAEM EVAR" and TD is not helping.
I know ZUN made it easier for the less-experienced players, but if I was one of them I would just feel more insulted than anything else.

Unless you're using the feature of the ultra patch that drastically increases stage progression, a snail is faster paced than TD.
The first three stages are absolute torture because of this as it feels like it lasts forever and nothing interesting ever happens, not to mention that the non-interesting things get copy-pasted over and over.
Because of the difficulty there's hardly any replay value, not even with spellpractice involved. There's just hardly anything interesting worth doing challenges over. Overdrive is a joke.
And then there's Trance, ZUN's idea of a hyper while completely missing the point. Activating a hyper is supposed to make the game HARDER. Not enable a no-bullet mode.

The patterns are pretty lackluster and this is probably because of the scoring system. Why bother? It's not like you're going to have to dodge anything anyway. And he knows his fans will play anything he makes anyway.
Underwhelming final boss. As for the music, I like Yoshika's and Mamizou's themes and all the music in stage 4 and 6. The rest are completely bland and forgettable. Yuyuko's theme on the other hand is so obnoxious it makes my ears hurt.

Can't say anything for the story as I don't give a damn. I still remember installing the English patch for FW and still unintentionally skipping through the dialog without reading it ever. It's not like you're missing out for not reading it.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2011, 11:13:44 AM »
I like the game a good bit. I don't get why everyone is saying Lunatic mode is easy; it freaking isn't, it's about on par with PCB or MoF Lunatic, I feel that the comparisons are to games in other series which is a tad unfair. I still can't 1cc Mushihimesama Futari on Normal despite having 5 Lunatics under my belt. Judging within the series itself is more appropriate.

The game has less drama I feel. There's less sense of impending doom around the same times that you'd expect, particularly the stage 5 boss. Sakuya -> Youmu -> Reisen -> Sanae -> ORIN -> MOTHER****ING SHOU -> some girl with a boat. And while I like St Miko as a character, her last card is also a deal breaker. The really intense part of the fight is Gauss Cannon and the spell that comes after it, the last card feels like it's a Last Spell from IN.

Music is overall good. Rigid Paradise is as good as it was when the demo came out, Desire Drive is good, all the boss themes are pretty decent. Last boss music isn't as amazing as Cosmic Mind (though what is?) and feels more like a stage 5 boss track.

My biggest problem with the game is the extra stage. The stage portion is boring as all hell, mainly because of the hypers making parts of it autopilot. Also, Nue's second card is harder than Grudge Bow, which just shouldn't be the case and the entire Mamizou fight feels utterly random; even if you know what you're doing, the bird bullets in particular just make your life a living hell and her eighth card is *still* harder than Genetics for me.

I look forward to the English patch so I can appreciate the endings, but for the most part, TD is a good game that made me appreciate how amazing UFO was.
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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2011, 11:37:54 AM »
Doing all this, not to mention the repeated comparisons between Touhou and Cave, doesn't make things magically OK just because you say, "But I like Touhou!" That's great that you do, and everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions.

Actually, the reason I even mentioned Cave games was because I misinterpreted Ghaleons piece about scoring. I don't feel any particular desire to compare the two to each other. They are both awesome things in their own way.

I like the game a good bit. I don't get why everyone is saying Lunatic mode is easy

Its easy compared to the standards we are accustomed to. UFO Lunatic, SA Lunatic, Cave games and their 2nd loops. Etc.
You say its more appropriate to compare the game's difficulty to the Touhou series alone? Well, okay. its still easy compared to SA and UFO. You say that TD is on par with MoF? I don't think it is. Playing MoF for score require almost flawless dodging of all the bosses attacks and it has one of the hardest Stage 4 bosses around. Not to mention Virtue of Wind God.



Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2011, 12:13:09 PM »
Lunatic in TD is a fucking joke compared to the rest of the games. I don't see how you can say its hard at all.

It took me like forever to do the rest of the games (mainly SA and UFO) on Lunatic

while TD took like 5 days after it came out and it probably would've been less days if it wasn't for school and shit. Really looking back on this game; Its a HUGE step down from UFO its not even funny. Really disappointed in you Zun. 

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2011, 01:19:33 PM »
My opinion on Touhou 13 is derived from a couple of Normal clears and high-end Lunatic replays. It should go without saying that I don't have much experience with the game, but that is because I have zero desire to play it. I don't find it particularly fun, and by this point, I just feel like it doesn't really show me anything that I haven't seen before.

This game's scoring system is my largest gripe about it. The Trance system does not appear to carry a penalty, risk, or cost, which I think is the key mistake. Other games that employ a similar mechanic do things like having you jeopardize all or part of your score, or make the game temporarily or permanently more difficult by increasing the rank. Touhou 13, on the other hand, gives you a more powerful shot and ten seconds of complete invulnerability through which you can check out what's happening on the TV next to you or something. You can also abuse bombs in a similar manner. I also find the proximity system somewhat unpolished: While I don't mind playing at the top of the screen and having to get up close to enemies, I do appreciate not having bullets spawning right on top of me; a dead zone feature similar to that in Battle Garegga and Hellsinker would have been nice to see. Or maybe I just have the wrong approach. Anyway, the combination of both systems has you spending too much time sitting on a boss doing nothing but watching the numbers on the right go up.

Finally, I'm bored of the underlying formula ZUN uses when designing the scoring systems for the mainline games. This is a personal issue, I understand, but it does influence what I think of Touhou 13. Since Touhou 4, I believe, each game has you do something like shoot enemies, graze bullets, or collect items, in order to increase the value of point items, which you must then collect above some point on the screen for maximum value. Some games deviate from this more than others, but these concepts are present in all of them in some capacity. No matter what sort of spin ZUN puts on this formula, it has just become stale for me. I've said it before and I'll say it again--I want to see ZUN make a full mainline Touhou game that doesn't play like a typical Touhou game; just something new and refreshing.

Visually, I like the character art (as usual), presentation, and stage backgrounds. The lightning in stage 5 was a nice touch. The Trance effect is still pretty underwhelming, especially compared to games like Crimzon Clover. The bullet patterns are also a bit disappointing. One of the things Touhou is known for is its beautiful bullet patterns, but in Touhou 13, most of them utilize only one or two colors per pattern, and are highly random in nature. They are vastly overshadowed in my mind by those in RefRain ~prism memories~, which is another game that was released at C80.

As for the soundtrack, I like all of it. Nothing really stands out in particular, but it's just solid overall.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2011, 02:25:49 PM »
Note: Hope this does not turn into a flame war

Yes, TD is clearly easier than the recent games that have been released, but there seems to be the idea that Easy ==> Bad.

Actually I see TD as a pretty nice bridge of difficulty (for Lunatic) between MoF and UFO/SA (though there is still quite the gap between TD and UFO/SA to be filled another day). As such some people can work their skill level upwards with a nice gradient.

For those who have been waiting for so long and have been disappointed by the difficulty, keep in mind there are also players who are very happy about the difficulty as it suits them pretty nicely. (maybe Im one of them since I dont actually do scoreruns, though I will stick to UFO and SA for difficulty)

On another note, the only relevance of the characters and storylines to me is the historical and mythological trivia that comes with it, so it doesnt bother me at all.
I like the music though.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 02:29:20 PM by かけふみ »

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2011, 02:34:20 PM »
For those who have been waiting for so long and have been disappointed by the difficulty, keep in mind there are also players who are very happy about the difficulty as it suits them pretty nicely.

Yeah. Perhabs those people could just play Hard mode? Seems like a much better solution than to dumb down all the content leaving all the skilled players out.

Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2011, 02:44:23 PM »
if you aren't skilled enough why would you play on lunatic on the first place?

only things that i will say about the game are that miko has the most disappointing last spell on the whole saga and that the patterns design is way too simple
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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2011, 03:04:52 PM »
He's catered to you "cave 2nd loop no moving ndnb erryday" players already, it's time he made a game that is more suited for players who don't play shooters for a living again like in IN.

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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2011, 03:10:09 PM »
I'll have to make this short since I don't have much time.

Pros
- Characters are interesting, especially with the extra historical references ZUN added to the later girls.
- Music is good as always. It's not exactly overtaking SA or GFW in quality, but the songs are still pretty fun.
- While the danmaku isn't especially hard, that also means that there are little to no attacks I would consider BS. That makes actually learning stuff enjoyable enough that I don't completely ignore any of the stages, like I've found myself doing for some earlier games. The level of difficulty in any danmaku game will always be best served to people of certain skills - people need to start somewhere after all. Because someone out there will find things like TD Lunatic tough to clear anyway, I don't think it's fair to hate on the lack of difficulty too much.

Cons
- The Trance system. After thinking about it, the way it was implemented really isn't sitting well with me either. Didn't Nereid or someone propose making the Trances behave more like DDP's hypers? I would honestly like to see a patch that makes that happen, perhaps including the standard rank increases to something Ultra-like in the process. :V
- Scoring overall. This isn't a complete "con" for me, since I kinda like the chaining mechanic during the stages. I had been hoping in the time leading up to release that the scoring system would mandate spreading out bomb/Trance usage over bosses so you actually need to dodge a fair amount of stuff. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case at all. Even someone like Reimu, whose bomb and Trance are significantly weaker than, say, Marisa's, can bomb and Trance almost every boss attack in the game with a bit of finessing. Any difficulty in scoring comes more from remembering what to do where, and not psyching yourself into screwing it up.

So overall, while it's a fun game and always a welcome addition to the Touhou series, I think there was still a lot left to be desired (bad joke, I know, but I can't think of any other way to say it).
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Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2011, 03:49:09 PM »
it's time he made a game that is more suited for players who don't play shooters for a living again like in IN.

Can you explain to me why it has to be one or the other? Take SA for example. Lunatic players can have fun with some challenging danmaku. If you aren't good enough for that, then its no problem. You can just pick a lower difficulty. I remember when I had a hard time clearing SA. On Normal. Its a long time ago but I still remember it. The game was fun then. I didn't need to be a Lunatic to appreciate the game. Today, I'm a lunatic player and I still appreciate SA for being awesome.

TD. Not so much. It might be awesome for those of you who are less skilled. That's okay. However, people like me will be very disappointed because we can't really get anything out of it.