Author Topic: Graveyard Anonymafia - Game Over (Read 54716 times)

Edible · « **Reply #900 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:43:59 PM »

FYI, for those curious: The 16-player version had an additional goon and a Night Talker for town.

capt. h · « **Reply #901 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:45:09 PM »

I found it kind of funny that Affinity consistently doctor protected scum, instead of the "obvtown" players.

I'm surprised you allowed UK/Shadoweh OTP. It's unlynchable as scum meets obvtown as scum.

I would like to know what Affinity was thinking when she made her choices. I'm sorry to say that I would have a very hard time believing she was a doctor if she didn't protect Count day 2 even if she did claim, even though I had strong reason to suspect a doctor.

Also, what happened to "mass roleclaim via popcorning" in LyLo, UK? :V

Finally, as a note to UK - LLD's insanity is your obvscum. If I see you playing in a way that makes me think you're LLD, I will try for your lynch, because LLD's behavior, coming from you, is unacceptable (meaning obvscummy). I apologize for not continuing to push your lynch on day 4.

Incidentally, you had some words for my mafia theory. Do you still have comments about my mafia theory, now that we know you were scum, or were you just saying that because you were scum?

@Huh What - I think the 16 player version would have been too unbalanced in favor of scum.

Thata no Guykoro · « **Reply #902 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:46:19 PM »

Activist Vig actually started out as one of HW's fakeclaims elsewhere :V

Anyhow, the setup seems pretty good, if a bit focused on postdeath abilities for town.

capt. h · « **Reply #903 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:52:18 PM »

On that note, I can't hold the Bathory hate too much against NeoSerela (even though she was scum) since it depends on the player. I would never accept Bathory's play from UK, and if UK tried that, I would lynch UK on spot.

On theory - I don't think a lack of confidence is a scum tell. A lack of confidence indicates that the player is unsure of what the proper lynch is. It means they are considering the lynch. I consider absolute confidence much more scummy, because it means the player isn't seriously considering other lynches (and players). But that's just me.

Kitten4u · « **Reply #904 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:55:59 PM »

Thing about confidence is that if you don't show it as town scum will never be afraid of you. I will never let anyone see just how much I waffle when I play town. There is absolutely no need for it as all it would do is make me look less convincing to town and less of a threat to scum.

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #905 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:59:01 PM »

Um, I think it was about LOGIC, right?

Nah, just what I always say. People aren't rational actors. Or, as K4U puts it, Townies Are Weird. There's SOME amount of logic, but you're going to also have to consider intuition, capt. h. Relying *only* on logic will just catch you bad townies. Basically, everyone drops "scumtells". That's why I don't like them. Everyone will do something that's a bit more likely for scum to do than town. But sometimes they'll just do that ONE townie thing that makes them obv. You need to be able to find that. You'll also need to be able to recognize the lack of it as being scummy in some cases.

As for LLD's behavior, I think she errs on the wrong side of cases are scummy and never reveal your town reads. I've talked to her about this. As the number of votes on a town read increases, the more you need to share with the class. And the less people voting your scum suspect, the more carrots you need to provide to get town to go along with it. Relying only on people respecting your GUT =D only goes so far. There's an organic process to it I couldn't begin to explain.

You're right that I coast more on the rhetoric on those two rather than their actual meaning when I'm scum, which is a good catch.

@That Guy: I figured the after death abilities were part of the theme. I liked them.

@capt. h: Look, I don't care if the hate is "deserved" or not, it's this ELITIST BULLSHIT that drives people away. You weren't in #s-l last night but Rou was talking about how he quit playing mafia pretty much because of how awful the postgame was to him. I would not be surprised if this really hurts other people. CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, PEOPLE! That's all I'm asking, ok?

You think Bathory is terrible and would never accept her play from me. That's great, but why? What makes her terrible? What do you think she needs to improve?

K4U covers my point on confidence well, and you're going to mislynch me a lot if you use that as a scum tell.

Lexicat · « **Reply #906 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:03:27 PM »

Good Job Shadoweh/UK.

NeoSerela can bitch at me all she wants, but I still got her lynched. -shrug-

Oh, and so people were aware: D1 and D2 was controlled completely by Dorian. If you're going to attack MY play, please start at D3 onward.

(Note: Anyone attacking DORIAN'S play this game WILL get a scathing PM from me later.

)

Pesco · « **Reply #907 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:04:20 PM »

Dorian needs to post more :smug:

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #908 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:05:30 PM »

* UncertainKitten sighs

I'm not sure if that was your intent, LLD, but you still come off as arrogant. Please don't do any "scathing PMs" or anything. I know you're protective of your friends, but there's a way to do this in a way that makes everyone happy. And perpetuating the fighting is not that way.

Also Pesco is right

.

capt. h · « **Reply #909 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:09:33 PM »

Well, to be honest UK, Bathory needs to explain herself better. She needs to give us cases to go with, rather than questionable votecount analysis that is based on gut town reads and process of elimination. She needs to then expand her cases once she has her scum picks; she thought Munak was scummy, but it was based entirely on VCA that I disagreed wtih, so she needs to pull additional reasons for her suspicions outside of the ones she gives. If she is going to explain her scum reads based on her town reads, it is essential that she explain her town reads as well, otherwise there is no case.

Bathory did not explain herself well enough and did not put enough evidence into her individual cases, and that part at the end of day 3 with the VCA was extremely frustrating because I cannot understand how a player thinks if the player refuses to explain themselves. This makes it very difficult to tell their alignment.

EDIT: I agree, Dorian needs to post more. However, LLD's play is the play that I found frustrating and difficult to comprehend, for the reasons stated above.

J.O.B · « **Reply #910 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:11:03 PM »

I think every game from now on should have "Bardiche hates lurkers" deadline deductions.

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #911 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:13:01 PM »

Quote from: capt. h on August 28, 2011, 05:09:33 PM

Well, to be honest UK, Bathory needs to explain herself better. She needs to give us cases to go with, rather than questionable votecount analysis that is based on gut town reads and process of elimination. She needs to then expand her cases once she has her scum picks; she thought Munak was scummy, but it was based entirely on VCA that I disagreed wtih, so she needs to pull additional reasons for her suspicions outside of the ones she gives. If she is going to explain her scum reads based on her town reads, it is essential that she explain her town reads as well, otherwise there is no case.

Bathory did not explain herself well enough and did not put enough evidence into her individual cases, and that part at the end of day 3 with the VCA was extremely frustrating because I cannot understand how a player thinks if the player refuses to explain themselves. This makes it very difficult to tell their alignment.

EDIT: I agree, Dorian needs to post more. However, LLD's play is the play that I found frustrating and difficult to comprehend, for the reasons stated above.

See, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Don't say "OMG BATHORY IS TERRIBLE OBVSCUM", explain what you think is wrong with her play. I disagree with a few things but I agree with the general sentiment, as stated in my previous post.

THIS is how people in MotKTown are going to get better, not by saying "OMG YOU'RE AWFUL JUST GO DIE".

WHMZakeri · « **Reply #912 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:14:25 PM »

Good Scumhunt
Convincing Cases
Obvtown

Pick two

Stop hating on Lizzy, she did fine
Hate on me more, I screwed up the entire game because I didn't post half of my role!
Aaaaargh!

Hero999 · « **Reply #913 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:16:06 PM »

Quote from: J.O.B on August 28, 2011, 04:39:36 PM

It was like that when I got it.

I hate you. I really really hate you.

J.O.B · « **Reply #914 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:17:36 PM »

Why?
If it was because of endgame then why quote that?

Kitten4u · « **Reply #915 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:17:56 PM »

Here's my opinion on Cases Are Scummy

I agree that posting why you think someone is town on D1 and possibly D2 is silly. I'm more of the opinion that it's just noise rather than it telling scum how to act (as in, if they started actively trying to sound different it would be obvious to me), but I suppose that's a good enough reason not to do so too. Thing is, by D3 the NKs are more or less decided and it's obvious who looks townie and who doesn't regardless of if you say it, and if they tried to act differently by then it would be incredibly obvious when you isoed them. I don't think you need to post cases for ALL your town reads, just the ones that are in danger. In general, saying "this person is town because of ___________" is more likely to convince people than "this person is town and we are not lynching them."

As for cases against scum, not making them is so ridiculously good for scum I don't even know where to being. For the record, I am NOT criticizing the use of gut, it's a very good thing to use, it's only bad if you go "this person is scum yep" and nothing else. I'm better at finding townies than I am scum, so I do what I can to let people prove they are town to me. The easiest way to do this is to get them to talk. Cases help do this because they can respond to the things you think are scummy. Arguments are pro-town yo. Not to mention, people are more likely to listen to "this person is scum because of __________" rather than "_________ did some scummy shit so lets lynch him." It's useless if you catch scum if no one will listen to you and they don't get lynched. You might as well not have caught them at all.

But more than that it hurts scum quite a bit. If everyone is expected to post cases it means they have to post cases too thus making them more likely to get caught on bad logic or obviously bullshitty things. But more importantly, it gives townies a way to defend themselves. It gives them the ability to TALK. This makes it harder for scum to push town lynches.

So yes, if Cases Are Scummy becomes a thing I will be pissed.

Hero999 · « **Reply #916 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:19:52 PM »

Quote from: J.O.B on August 28, 2011, 05:17:36 PM

Why?
If it was because of endgame then why quote that?

Its because I don't want to type your name out.
I hate your quick lynch!
I HATE YOU FOR NOT LETTING ME POST 1ST!!!!

sigh...
Alright I'm done venting.

J.O.B · « **Reply #917 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:20:55 PM »

Meh, I just really wanted the game to hurry up and end.

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #918 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:23:36 PM »

I think the biggest problem with Elizabeth's D3 play was her attitude. Really, I would have been biased towards voting her over Serela out of a combination of irritation and the belief that having an air of superiority is something scum benifit from more than town.

Granted, that is partially just me being terrible, but I still think that her play was rather antagonizing and inconsiderate towards other players. Really, straight-out calling people "terribad town" is something you shouldn't be doing as a townie. It's rather demoralizing. Not to mention that posting with smug overconfidence and hyperoffensiveness can really grate on people and cause them to not take you seriously. I've even noted that I often find myself not actually reading into LLD's posts or taking her opinions into serious consideration regardless of my own alignment, simply because I don't like the way she conducts herself and I find that it makes her difficult to parse. This is probably more my problem than hers, but having a posting style that makes other players not want to take your opinions into consideration as much is kind of never a good thing.

Then again, I'm not sure if I'm really experienced enough to be giving advice on this kind of subject. <_< Still, opinions and etc.

As for the "cases are scummy" attitude, I dislike it. I play mafia more for the logic game than for gut, particularly because my gut is HORRIBLE outside of specific situations (hi Shadoweh!). If people as a whole start taking up these ideals, I'd probably just stop playing, because I really wouldn't have much of a reason to do so anymore. I do believe that everybody uses a little bit of their gut to make choices while playing, I just don't think that it's something that should dominate the game.

STOP FUCKING CUTTING ME

EDIT: On second thought, just see the entirety of what I did in NotV for why I don't like playing on gut ever. <_<

capt. h · « **Reply #919 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:28:08 PM »

Quote

[13:33] <Hero999> I still feel like bashing my head on a wall..
[13:33] <huhwhat> i would have done that but i thought it wouldn't be allowed

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #920 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:30:42 PM »

Quote from: Kitten4u on August 28, 2011, 05:17:56 PM

Here's my opinion on Cases Are Scummy

I agree that posting why you think someone is town on D1 and possibly D2 is silly. I'm more of the opinion that it's just noise rather than it telling scum how to act (as in, if they started actively trying to sound different it would be obvious to me), but I suppose that's a good enough reason not to do so too. Thing is, by D3 the NKs are more or less decided and it's obvious who looks townie and who doesn't regardless of if you say it, and if they tried to act differently by then it would be incredibly obvious when you isoed them. I don't think you need to post cases for ALL your town reads, just the ones that are in danger. In general, saying "this person is town because of ___________" is more likely to convince people than "this person is town and we are not lynching them."

As for cases against scum, not making them is so ridiculously good for scum I don't even know where to being. For the record, I am NOT criticizing the use of gut, it's a very good thing to use, it's only bad if you go "this person is scum yep" and nothing else. I'm better at finding townies than I am scum, so I do what I can to let people prove they are town to me. The easiest way to do this is to get them to talk. Cases help do this because they can respond to the things you think are scummy. Arguments are pro-town yo. Not to mention, people are more likely to listen to "this person is scum because of __________" rather than "_________ did some scummy shit so lets lynch him." It's useless if you catch scum if no one will listen to you and they don't get lynched. You might as well not have caught them at all.

But more than that it hurts scum quite a bit. If everyone is expected to post cases it means they have to post cases too thus making them more likely to get caught on bad logic or obviously bullshitty things. But more importantly, it gives townies a way to defend themselves. It gives them the ability to TALK. This makes it harder for scum to push town lynches.

So yes, if Cases Are Scummy becomes a thing I will be pissed.

I actually agree with the noise thing, I just have a sense of humor about it. I do KIND of believe that, but the noise thing is really the core of it. I'll start explaining it like that in the future. As for the rest, we've discussed this and I think we've agreed to disagree. I also think that the rhetoric version of Cases are Scummy is the one you hate.

Either way, I actually discussed this with Shadoweh. There are several reasons that I think not posting a full PBPA case is good (I'm going to define case as this in the future. A concise one or two lines explaining a scummy fact about a person is a kind of case, but it's the kind you use when you accept a cases are scummy style). The first one was actually a breakthrough for me. Townies like voting for something THEY came up with. So, when you provide one or two concise points, and let people join the wagon, they add their own points and they're freer to do so. It makes them feel like they're really taking part in the lynch rather than sheeping. It ALSO gives you more information about their motives, and usually with less noise than a wall of text war. Secondly, the one or two point thing has more force because there's no wiggle room. I think we disagree here because I feel that you should give your scumspects as little wiggle room as possible, and if you can't trap them, then you need to reconsider your scumspects. If you're still not feeling town from them, then at that point a full case might help. The key is VERSATILITY. Thirdly, and I know you'll disagree with this, the concise style I propose let's you bluff. It puts someone under the spotlight you might not be *sure* is scum, particularly if you have some force of will to back it up. They'll be forced to act a lot more, and you can determine if they're scum. This is very tricky and you do NOT want to get caught in your own vortex of bias.

In the end, I think both styles have their pros and cons, but I think the reliance on cases has become a bad thing. To be honest, it's not that hard to bullshit a case as scum, K4U. People drop scumtells all the time, as I said. We had a plethora of designated mislynches this game. Cases also give a tendency to confirmation bias because you put so much time and effort into going back and forth with someone. When you're aligned in a fight against someone, you think they're scum usually ,and it gets reinforced. Natural us v.s them. The Cases Are Scummy style isn't immune to this, but I think it's easier to avoid that noise generating back and forth where you go over the same points over and over.

Anyway, I think I need a new name for the style. Any suggestions?

capt. h · « **Reply #921 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:32:09 PM »

Twitterposting.

Edible · « **Reply #922 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:33:53 PM »

Quote from: UncertainKitten on August 28, 2011, 05:30:42 PM

Anyway, I think I need a new name for the style. Any suggestions?

Mastery of the Elements!

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #923 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:35:44 PM »

To be fair, I think there's some merit in what UK is saying, if only because CotA made me realize that it can be very easy for scum to BS up cases on other people (hi Schezo!). I still prefer logic over gut, though, because gut simply does not work for me.

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #924 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:39:38 PM »

Really, in the end it's up to what works for you. If you're catching scum and looking town, you're doing it right. There's no one way to play mafia. I know I push my way hard in games, but it's part of what I do. The reactions to theory can help me figure things out a little, I think. Honestly, I don't premeditate what I do, I just look at the situation and do what I feel will help me find scum (as town), or help me look town (as scum). I like to think it kind of works, as well as ANYTHING works in mafia.

Kitten4u · « **Reply #925 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:43:49 PM »

Quote from: HW

(hi Schezo!).

Except it was that case that made me 100% sure you were scum as opposed to the about 60% I was before. :V

I'm not saying you have to post a huge wall of text for every case. Just posting what's needed is fine. However, there is one point that I think we disagree on hugely. I don't like to give scum wiggle room either. If they can't convince me they're town then as far as I'm concerned they're scum. I just also don't like to give anyone else any wiggle room when it comes to not joining my wagon. That's why I often say "explain to me why this person is town" to the people that aren't voting my target.

I also generally don't like PBPA, so I have no idea why you're calling that a case when I never use it myself. :V I don't think I typically post wall cases either (I do sometimes when I think it's needed/I need to do a bit of strangulation/whatever, the main reason I post walls is just because I don't post often).

I think the above is exactly where we disagree though. I think I should tell people everything I've got as I'm of the opinion scum are more interested in finding unique points than town. If my case is convincing enough I think they will join it. If they don't I will expect them to have a good reason why, a case if you will. :V

Quote from: UK

There's no one way to play mafia.

This is completely true though.

Pesco · « **Reply #926 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:44:11 PM »

If your name is Pesco, all you have to do is post a list of names on Day 2 :V

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #927 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:46:32 PM »

Quote from: Pesco on August 28, 2011, 05:44:11 PM

If your name is Pesco, all you have to do is PM the moderator a list of 5 names on Night 1 :V

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #928 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:48:30 PM »

Quote from: Pesco on August 28, 2011, 05:44:11 PM

If your name is Pesco, all you have to do is post a list of names on Day 2 :V

This also works if your name is Ciato or, sometimes, Dread Thomas.

I hate the power being out because there's so much more I want to say but it ain't happening on the phone. ;_;

Pesco · « **Reply #929 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:51:21 PM »

I'd love to have another showdown with Dread Thomas someday.